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Author Topic: panorama - badger cull  (Read 6233 times)

mojocafa

  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Angus
panorama - badger cull
« on: November 12, 2012, 09:12:02 pm »
I have found tonights episode of panorama upsetting. It featured cattle with bovine tb being shot and a badger also being shot. I have been blissfully ignorant to this problem and havent any experience with cattle or even  ever seen a real live badger. I thought both the farmers and the activists put over good arguments for their cause, however,the program hasnt persuaded me one way or an other, its just upset me.  Whats your thoughts?
mojo
pygmy goats, gsd, border collie, scots dumpys, cochins, araucanas, shetland ducks and geese,  marrans, and pea fowl in a pear tree.

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 09:31:03 pm »
Infected badgers are a major reservoir of infection however I dont believe the cull as consituted will deliver enough reduction to make it worthwhile. Nor is vaccination practical as the current vaccine is only 50% effective and has to be annual. A future vaccine will be useful but only if the infection reservoir is low enough first and if the legal barriers from Europe/global health organisations can be overcome. But doing nothing is not an option as this disease can infect all sorts of other species, including pets and humans.
 There is current development of a test to identify infected setts definitively and my preference would be for this to be used and agreement to be reached that all infected setts be cleared out and healthy setts protected. This would be a lot more acceptable to the public and also would be very much supported by farmers who do not want to kill healthy badgers any more than they enjoy killing pregnant cows at the moment.
In the meantime, many farmers can identify infected setts and clean setts by behavioural and other signs, and if the DIVA test referred to above doesnt prove an option then I think they should be allowed to remove suspected infected badgers, notwithstanding the Badger Act (which actually currently conflicts with their disease control legal obligations).

downsized

  • Joined Oct 2012
  • Dumfriesshire
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 10:45:28 pm »
Infected badgers are a major reservoir of infection however I dont believe the cull as consituted will deliver enough reduction to make it worthwhile. Nor is vaccination practical as the current vaccine is only 50% effective and has to be annual. A future vaccine will be useful but only if the infection reservoir is low enough first and if the legal barriers from Europe/global health organisations can be overcome. But doing nothing is not an option as this disease can infect all sorts of other species, including pets and humans.
 There is current development of a test to identify infected setts definitively and my preference would be for this to be used and agreement to be reached that all infected setts be cleared out and healthy setts protected. This would be a lot more acceptable to the public and also would be very much supported by farmers who do not want to kill healthy badgers any more than they enjoy killing pregnant cows at the moment.
In the meantime, many farmers can identify infected setts and clean setts by behavioural and other signs, and if the DIVA test referred to above doesnt prove an option then I think they should be allowed to remove suspected infected badgers, notwithstanding the Badger Act (which actually currently conflicts with their disease control legal obligations).

Right on the nail 100%

henchard

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Two Retirees Start a New Life in Wales
    • Facebook
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 08:14:18 am »
Whats your thoughts?


No one seems to get too upset about killing rats (generally with slow acting poisons that cause them to painfully bleed to death internally)

http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=28653
 
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=27413
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 08:16:26 am by henchard »

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 09:16:38 am »
thats not really relevant, in a topic about badgers.

henchard

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Two Retirees Start a New Life in Wales
    • Facebook
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 09:45:11 am »
thats not really relevant, in a topic about badgers.

There was me thinking it was a topic about being blissfully ignorant about the killing of animals and inviting people's thoughts

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 10:34:15 am »
thats not really relevant, in a topic about badgers.
Im not sure why it isnt relevant? - both are acknowledged by both sides to be key carriers of both animal and human potentially fatal diseases, neither are remotely endangered and the living habits of both make it extremely difficult to undertake anything other than sealed indoor factory farm units without their control around farms?
I have no issue with the blanket protection of endangered species but cant understand why the badger enjoys 100% gold plated protection that isnt afforded to any other species eg rat, fox, rabbit.

mojocafa

  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Angus
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 11:13:03 am »
Can i just clarify that my ignorance was due to a lack of knowledge of bovine tb, the cause,spread and consequences of this condition.  The reply that  lauchlinandmarcus posted was helpful thankyou.
pygmy goats, gsd, border collie, scots dumpys, cochins, araucanas, shetland ducks and geese,  marrans, and pea fowl in a pear tree.

HelenVF

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 11:51:46 am »
I believe the cull should go ahead for research purposes.  I didn't see the programme, only the very end and did hear a protester that the government just wanted to kill badgers.  He made out that they were doing it for fun.  That, totally takes away any credibility of his argument (not that I heard it), when he is spouting things like that. 
 
 
However, I haven't heard of this:
 
There is current development of a test to identify infected setts definitively and my preference would be for this to be used and agreement to be reached that all infected setts be cleared out and healthy setts protected. This would be a lot more acceptable to the public and also would be very much supported by farmers who do not want to kill healthy badgers any more than they enjoy killing pregnant cows at the moment.

....and think it could well be the way forward.
 
I do agree that something needs to be done.
 
Helen

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2012, 04:19:41 pm »
Doesn't matter how effective or not (and it isn't) the vaccine is - you can't vaccinate an animal against a disease it already has, and who is going to tb test all the badgers, cull reactors and vaccinate the rest?


The problem is that badgers can persist with tb for a long time and as such act as reservoirs for infection. The EU is leaning heavily on us to do something about this problem - just look at the Americans and the Kiwis, managed to virtually eradicate the same disease with selective culling of the reservoir species.


And....


Its tb, for christs sake, people can get it! I'll dig out the link to that woman who got it from her alpacas. ... I cannot believe we aren't controlling a potentially fatal disease of humans because badgers are nice to look at.




deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2012, 05:01:29 pm »
please forgive the over enthusiastic moderation. sorry.

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 05:33:33 pm »
Doesn't matter how effective or not (and it isn't) the vaccine is - you can't vaccinate an animal against a disease it already has, and who is going to tb test all the badgers, cull reactors and vaccinate the rest?


The problem is that badgers can persist with tb for a long time and as such act as reservoirs for infection. The EU is leaning heavily on us to do something about this problem - just look at the Americans and the Kiwis, managed to virtually eradicate the same disease with selective culling of the reservoir species.
Not only do badgers persist with TB for  a long time, when they do finally show symptoms they are chucked out of the family group of setts and sent roaming.....to spread it to the next place. Nightmare.


And....


Its tb, for christs sake, people can get it! I'll dig out the link to that woman who got it from her alpacas. ... I cannot believe we aren't controlling a potentially fatal disease of humans because badgers are nice to look at.

sabrina

  • Joined Nov 2008
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2012, 07:00:00 pm »
We are over run with badgers in our area yet as far as I know there is no TB in Scotland, might be wrong. why is it just the badgers and not deer, foxes, etc that carry TB or do they ?

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2012, 10:24:58 pm »
We are over run with badgers in our area yet as far as I know there is no TB in Scotland, might be wrong. why is it just the badgers and not deer, foxes, etc that carry TB or do they ?
There have been a couple of small outbreaks to date but without the badger reservoir it doesnt keep reinfecting herds.
Deer can and do carry TB. However they are less prone to depositing saliva etc on cattle troughs or coming into such close (even nose to nose) contact spreading it to farm animals. Fallow deer are more susceptible than other deer species as they are quite gregarious. They may not be so long lived as badgers and they certainly dont shed the virus as generously.
One of the main issues with badgers is that they are particularly efficient at shedding the virus and yet at the same time particularly good at living a long time with the disease, although they will eventually die a slow and painful death from it. And their extended social groups means the disease will spread through the sett and then further afield once sick badgers are excluded.
Foxes can also catch it as can dogs and cats. But they dont appear to be a significant vector in transmission to other species, - tho more research would be useful.
One species that is very susceptible to TB and for which the skin test used for cattle doesnt work are camelids (llamas and alpacas). The lack of any movement testing etc for these species is a big concern since 53 alpaca and llama herds had been confirmed with bTB in Britain up to September 2011, including at least one with 400+ animals slaughtered. Their spitting habits and close relationship with owners means that they if infected present a real risk of human transmission - it has already happened to an alpaca keeper.
The low incidence in Scotland is probably down to fewer and lower density badgers overall (even if there are pockets with a lot), there are none in many of the main cattle areas (they like deciduous woodland and soft pasture for setts not thin soil and granite!), possibly more (unobserved) DIY control of wandering badgers (no evidence for this, just think the remoteness of much of the country would make that possible given that a lot of people have guns), more wary wildlife hence less close contact with livestock, less cross border long distance cattle movements (altho cattle caused flare ups tend to die out once the carriers have been culled, you dont tend to get the reinfections you get in badger areas). But in the end, the explosion in badger numbers and spread of high densities across the UK will mean that much of the UK will eventually be in the parlous state that the south and west are currently (Scotlands climate and geology may protect it in many but not all areas).

mart2671

  • Joined Sep 2012
  • South Devon
Re: panorama - badger cull
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2012, 11:00:07 pm »
Twenty six Thousand Cattle were slaughtered in the uk , under the TB testing scheme in 2011, From January to July 2012 the figure for that period is already 1000 higher than in 2011. It has cost the UK tax payer 500 million pounds over the last ten years in compensation to farmers . Down here in the South West about 23% of cattle farms are under TB restrictions at any time. I just wonder who is standing up for all those poor cattle that had to be slaughtered , We seem to forget they had to give up there lives to TB. Pregnant cows , calves, and many from herds that have been farmed by the same family for generations whiping out generations of  Pedigree breeding that we will never get back .The average cost to each farm confirmed with TB IS £34000 . A solution to this issue needs to be found wether its a cull ,or vacination of badgers or cattle . 

 

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