[SallyintNorth]

There are more cases of bTB in sheep each year than there are in goats.

In 2011, there were 40 cases in pigs, 35 in sheep, 18 in cats, 17 in alpaca, 15 in wild deer, 6 in farmed deer.

The last year in which there were a number of cases in goats was 2008, when there were 33 cases.  There was 1 in 2010.  However, they test very few goats - 14 in 2009, 11 in 2010, 10 in 2011 - which, given the experience you are having, is making me rather worried that a lot of goats who should be getting tested are not being tested.

One of the politician's (small 'p') favourite tricks is to be able to say that, "we have found no evidence of xxxx" when in fact a more unambiguous statement would be, "We have not looked for any evidence of xxxx"

[in the hills]

Rhi - sorry about your cattle and the worry about your goats. 


Did I read that you too are in Mid-Wales?


I know very little about TB, except what my farming friends up here tell me .... we only keep a few sheep.
So from what SITN writes, sheep can also contract TB.  It is often a problem for farmers all around me ... reactors, cattle that are slaughtered leaving calves and then in some cases found not to have it and restricted movements. I have never heard them mention sheep and TB    .... and there are plenty of sheep here.


How would you know if sheep were affected? Can they not transfer it from place to place just as cattle would?

[Penninehillbilly]

This is just getting me wondering, I know badgers are usually classed as the carriers (not arguing that), but how often could wild deer be the carriers? How many people know if they have deer around during the night? I've been told there are at last 5 visit our lower fields but they are out of sight of our house. (And we don't get up early enough    )
The very fact they are wild and secretive means there are thousands untested and could be carriers?

[Rhi]

Its such a complex subject, I'm based powys mid wales,
We have muntjac deer visiting our fields at night along with the badgers and foxes, they all seem to descend on us as we are surrounded by woodland, forest and bracken hill side.
So my goats are exposed to it.
I have again rang the ministry explaining the circumstances and because I don't intend to eat or milk my goats there isn't any issue, but my vet has said if I wish to test they will happily do it.
I believe any animal can carry it, maybe without contracting it themselves. For instance if I have a badger proof shed but a mouse who's been in contact with another infected animal is it spreading it? Its so unclear and I have to say when I spoke to the ministry my mind was put to rest, but having read up and looked into it more I'm now very concerned. So complicated, I couldn't sleep last night thinking about it all, I will be testing my goats asap.

[SallyintNorth]

Rhi, I did forget to say how sorry I am that you have reactors in your cattle 

How would you know if sheep were affected? Can they not transfer it from place to place just as cattle would?

Abso-bloomin'-lootly.  Is why we don't buy stock from south of us.

And yes, phb, deer are so widespread and clearly can get it, it's hard to see how they could be other than one of the vectors.  The thing with badgers, as I understand it, is that they come right up to the farmstead, even into the sheds so get much more up close and personal with the cattle than wild deer would. 

Rhi, thank you for wanting your goats tested    I can see that the Ministry's focus is purely safeguarding human health, which is a noble aim - but surely they are ignoring the very real possibility of non-bovine livestock carting the ruddy disease about the country? 

[Roxy]

If infected badgers are on land, foxes, deer, and even cats and dogs go on that same land......and where else do these animals walk. Apparantly, the badgers can infect other animals, by drinking out of their troughs, and also they will eat cattle feed left in troughs.  Although our cattle were always fed in suspensed troughs well off the ground.
A farmer I know is surrounded by TB cases and shut down farms, and he runs a big suckler herd.  So far, all his tests have come back clear. Hard to believe, but like he says, its probably only a matter of time.
 

[Welshcob]

Sheep and goats are more resistant to bTB (Merck manual info) than cattle, so vets tend to advise testing only if there is suspicion of contagion. The fact that they are resistant and probably won't get ill, also means that catching the odd carrier might be difficult.

Other point: sheep and goats are VERY susceptible to M. avium (which is same family as bTB) and causes paraTB. It is a terrible disease and in cattle testing for bTB might come up positive even if it's just paraTB (which is still bad enough). I wouldn't be surprised if that is also the case in sheep/goats.

All in all, very complicated but surely if one wants to test for their own peace of mind, they should let you do it? Not somebody keep repeating is not necessary. It's true, sometimes you don't look for fear of what you might find, but these are terrible diseases and hiding their head in the sand won't help for re-election. politicians, blahh.

[Anke]

para TB = Johne's disease... seems to be a completely different disease... and I do know of cases in Scotland.

[Rhi]

Well I have been onto ministry again today, didn't get any more info, and even though we have TB on the farm a test is not available for my goats, how ever obviously at my expense my vet will do it.
It appears they will test goats if there is a suspicious death within the herd and TB is suspected otherwise they've said there's no need for me to worry. According to vet goats are within the same family as sheep, who rarely get it so there is not as much to worry about, although I am worried, my goats are pets and very special ladies, wouldn't want them to be ill, but have to admit very scared that when they are tested I'll have bad news.
In some ways I wish I'd just carried on and not worried myself over it, but want to be a responsible goat owner and farmer.
I've been informed to badger proof my land and sheds, I mean physically how is this possible, my goats roam 40 acres including woodland, fields, rough ground, without confining them to a shed there's no way I could protect them fully, we we're also advised to "badger proof" our cattle sheds. Our cattle have never reacted during winter months when housed, they only ever react when they've been out during the summer, its impossible to protect them, the cost would be tremendous, probably bankrupt us!! It bothers me that TB is such a big thing in cattle but dismissed when it comes to other animals, they have such strict guidelines for cattle. X

[lachlanandmarcus]

Given what badgers teeth can bite through, badger proofing is pretty well impossible for most set ups. Makes me  when this is presented as 'the answer'. I think you are trying to be a very responsible owner and you would think the more testing the better. But sadly successive governments pass the parcel as they took their eye off the ball just at the point that TB was almost eradicated in the UK and now it is probably too late to control it effectively, and none of them want to really tackle it as they dont want to be holding the parcel when the music stops! :-(((

[jaykay]

In people we'd treat TB not shoot them. Why can't ill animals be treated? Ok, maybe not commercial cattle but why not pet goats?

[jinglejoys]

Why should "Pet" goats be treated any differant! Typical reaction,they run round developing vaccines for badgers but no one bothers about the Farmers cattle.

[Rhi]

Totally agree, they vaccinate badgers and humans, why not vaccinate cattle, goats etc.
We vaccinate sheep with 8 in 1 to protect them from certain diseases, and vaccinate cattle for various other diseases.
We only have a herd of about 60 sucklers but in 5 years we have lost approx 12 cattle to positive reactions to the test, only 5 of them had visible lesions upon post mortem, we have had 7 inconclusives, 4 of which had to be culled also as they we're inconclusive 3 times in a row, but also came back clear, the test is not accurate in my eyes for cattle, other animals can have it detected via a blood test, the same should apply for cattle. If a cow is stressed it can lead to a positive reaction. When we are clear of TB we have made the decision to give up breeding our own cattle (due to other commitments) and will actually be just buying in weanling calves to fatten, even when down with TB we can still send direct to slaughter and we can sell in a red market with a proper license. So many flaws in the rules.
I as you can tell have such strong views on this, and you guys have helped immensely when its come to my goats, fingers crossed they can be tested next week, I will also be enquiring as to whether there's a vaccine for them, they are vaccinated for tetanus, 8 in 1 like the sheep for various things also so why they can't be vaccinated against TB seems a little silly. X

[Rhi]

I must also apologise for my long replies, lol, once I start typing I find it hard to stop =/ x

[lachlanandmarcus]

Totally agree, they vaccinate badgers and humans, why not vaccinate cattle, goats etc.
We vaccinate sheep with 8 in 1 to protect them from certain diseases, and vaccinate cattle for various other diseases.
We only have a herd of about 60 sucklers but in 5 years we have lost approx 12 cattle to positive reactions to the test, only 5 of them had visible lesions upon post mortem, we have had 7 inconclusives, 4 of which had to be culled also as they we're inconclusive 3 times in a row, but also came back clear, the test is not accurate in my eyes for cattle, other animals can have it detected via a blood test, the same should apply for cattle. If a cow is stressed it can lead to a positive reaction. When we are clear of TB we have made the decision to give up breeding our own cattle (due to other commitments) and will actually be just buying in weanling calves to fatten, even when down with TB we can still send direct to slaughter and we can sell in a red market with a proper license. So many flaws in the rules.
I as you can tell have such strong views on this, and you guys have helped immensely when its come to my goats, fingers crossed they can be tested next week, I will also be enquiring as to whether there's a vaccine for them, they are vaccinated for tetanus, 8 in 1 like the sheep for various things also so why they can't be vaccinated against TB seems a little silly. X

Vaccination for any livestock that goes into the food chain would make any further attempts at testing ineffective (since the vaccine isnt fantastically effective for TB, enough for humans who dont spit and cough at each other toooooo much but animals do!, testing would still be needed). As I understand it, unless a better vaccine comes along (or even then) currently EU rules would not permit vaccination, certainly if we wanted to be permitted to export meat.