[in the hills]

   Robert, how could you .... where's the hiding behind the sofa icon ..... I can't find it. 


Littlelugs - that was my point really. How many dog owners actually bought the license? Did the irresponsible owners/breeders bother to get one? If something as simple as that didn't work how could the other proposals on here ..... as much as they maybe needed for all critters, including the human kind. And I know we're in the doggy section but if you brought in such legislation for dogs ... why not everything else?


And since Mr W. has stepped aside, I am well aware of what goes on. Someone locally has had 2 cross bred litters recently .... all sold .... not a "fashionable" or working cross but still £200 per pup. While there is a market???

[robert waddell]

      it is still there but i am not hidding

[SallyintNorth]

Grrrr...

We all did so well on the tail docking thread but we ain't making such a good job of it over here.

Some pedigree fans appear to think that all crossbreeds and mongrels should never have been born.

Some mongrel and crossbreed fans appear to think that all pedigree breeders are responsible for all the hereditary problems now found in so many of our dogs (and not just pedigree dogs, now, either  )

Note, I said 'some' in both sentences!   

I, being a fan of healthy, active dogs in appropriate homes living appropriate lives, however they are bred, do find it hard to really assimilate a post which is written around an assumption that the only good dog is a pedigree dog whose parentage is known for 5 more more generations.  I just switch off as I don't agree with that premise.  So my mind is not opened and my opinions cannot be modified.

Equally, I can see how folks who believe that responsible breeding can cure the ills of the pedigree dog, will be similarly closed down and turned off by a post whose opening premise is that the only healthy dog is one full of hybrid vigour.

When the animal rescue centres are full of unwanted dogs, and most breeds have a society with either a rescue centre and/or a list of dogs for rehoming, none of us can argue that there aren't too many dogs - of all kinds.

I don't have the answers either, but I do wish we could conduct this debate in as level and respectful a way as we did the one on tail docking - I really learned something there.

[Moleskins]

Sally, where abouts in the North are you ?
I want to come and kiss you for speaking some straight forward common sense. !!


I feel got at because I've a pedigree dog which has just had a litter.  And one member in particular is very keen to give her cloaked criticism, frankly I'd rather people were straight and open. 3/5 pups with homes at 2 weeks of age, health checked sire and dam, bred her because I was asked if we would, just where's your problem ?


We live in a free country and all the hot air about training and licensing for all animals, how the heck would that work in reality, I've got bees, sheep, hens, the dogs had some pigs but not at the moment. Lets try to be realistic, and if we are, we know it ain't workable.


Perhaps we need to accept that some animals are 'wrong' for whatever reason and cannot be kept or found happy homes. Many of us do it all the time with male sheep, cows, pigs, hens etc etc. yet when it comes to dogs boy does the SHTF.


I know this sounds hard, I'm a softy really but we have to be practical.


What are the practicalities of homing every stray dog, preventing breeding, licensing etc.  So big breath, cup of tea have a think and come up with ideas which will work in the real world.

[doganjo]

Yup, I take that all on board - so what is the solution, YL?  The FACTs are:
1. Too many dogs being brought into the world
2. Too many being euthanased for no other reason than no-one wants them
3. Too many maulings
4. Too many dogs with inherited diseases causing untold misery for both them and their owners

There are more but that'll do for starters.

1 Too many of which breed?
2. What breed, age, temperament are being PTS?
3. What breed are responsible for the mailings?
4. Which breeds and where are they being bred and who by?


As usual no substance to your input.

I take it you read the news?  Admittedly this is from 2004 but last I heard from our contacts and as a member of Dogs Trust the situation if anything is worse because of the recession - more people trying to make cash by selling puppies, more people dumping dogs because of not being able to feed them or take them to their vet for medicines.
Up to you to believe what you will but these are the facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3908321.stm

[robert waddell]

moleskins you are not that far from sally     but her man might object

[in the hills]

   Moleskins and SITN.
       
         

[doganjo]

Sally, I don't know if it's me you refer to but I don't have an aversion to people breeding mongrels or crossbreeds. 

What I have an aversion to is people breeding a pet bitch for bad reasons - i.e. it would good for her, I want a puppy from her, I want some money, my kids need to see a litter of puppies being born.  It is not good for the bitch, it can put her life at risk, there is no need to take a puppy from your own bitch if her breeder has repeated the mating, or has siblings, it is not a valid reason to get more money,
I have an aversion also to people who think it is OK to breed a  bitch - or a dog - without checking for hereditary diseases - for example in my breed as I have said before it's hip dysplasia, in Labradors it is Hip dysplasia and PRA and other eye conditions, in Springers it's DNA tests for eye and womb conditions,  Annual eye testing, Hip scoring, and for my other breed Cockers it is much the same as Springers.

Here is the list - http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

And this is the KC's recommendations and explanation of their health schemes for Pedigree dogs, which I think should be extended legally to ALL dogs, whatever their breeding.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2145

One of my pals breeds Labradoodles - to order only, her bitch being the daughter of two Field Trial Champions, the sire being her friend's Champion Poodle, both of which have had full DNA and health checks and are clear.  She keeps the pups till they have had both inoculations(10 weeks), and are vet checked before they go to their new homes.  That is the sort of breeder I admire, and to which others should aspire.

[Moleskins]

I take it you read the news?  Admittedly this is from 2004 but last I heard from our contacts and as a member of Dogs Trust the situation if anything is worse because of the recession - more people trying to make cash by selling puppies, more people dumping dogs because of not being able to feed them or take them to their vet for medicines.
Up to you to believe what you will but these are the facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3908321.stm

Daily Mail Today Page 22 - yes I read the news and it's not 8 years out of date.
Which dogs are being put down and why

[SallyintNorth]

Sally, I don't know if it's me you refer to but I don't have an aversion to people breeding mongrels or crossbreeds. 

I know you don't Annie  , and you've said so on several occasions.   

[in the hills]

Doganjo - that's a long list of "bad reasons" for breeding.
You say that wanting a puppy from your bitch is a bad reason  . My father bred from his bitches occasionally for that very reason. He field trialled/ worked / showed his dogs. He had a good bitch and would breed her to what he believed to be a good dog. Would he then be classed as an irresponsible breeder? 


There is in my opinion a big difference between breeding constantly for no other purpose than money and the dog breeding that goes on on a small scale for many other reasons.


Think we have to be careful not to be too judgemental of other people and their reasons for breeding.

[YorkshireLass]

Yes there is a problem, and no I don't have the solution.


I just know I wouldn't bother faffing around with more qualifications and licences and paperwork - even if I could afford it. Does that make me less dedicated to my dog? Does that mean I love her and care for her any less? When she's ill, do I not drop everything and go to vet? Do I not sigh and clean up mud, blood, "accidents", hair...without anger? Do not try and make a dog a rich man's toy, often they are the only companion left when someone hits rock bottom.


How about something radical and more based on livestock work.
Culling ones who are "no good".
I see many many rescues with the best of intentions, but they are full of untrained street dogs, or biters, or overly anxious ones, and these difficult dogs are clogging up the system so that little Fido whose owner died cannot get a chance.
I think the time has come too accept our limits, albeit with a heavy heart, and simply say that after x number of weeks or months, depending on behaviour and health, that's that.


As for the puppies - regulation won't work in general. We already have consumer protection, trading standards, anti cruelty - these need to be applied before adding any more! We need to remove the demand, then it doesn't really matter what is legal/illegal.
How to do that? I'm not sure. Get in to schools, youth clubs, Sure Start centres...?


Discuss

[doganjo]

Doganjo - that's a long list of "bad reasons" for breeding.
You say that wanting a puppy from your bitch is a bad reason  . My father bred from his bitches occasionally for that very reason. He field trialled/ worked / showed his dogs. He had a good bitch and would breed her to what he believed to be a good dog. Would he then be classed as an irresponsible breeder? 


There is in my opinion a big difference between breeding constantly for no other purpose than money and the dog breeding that goes on on a small scale for many other reasons.


Think we have to be careful not to be too judgemental of other people and their reasons for breeding.

It's not THAT long - FOUR reasons?

If your father took consideration of all health testing available at the time for his breed, then no, he wasn't irresponsible.  Are you saying that health testing should not be a consideration when breeding?

I am not being judgemental - I am being practical and supporting dogs in general. 

They are not tools for money to be made from whether on a large or a small scale - I apologise for disagreeing with you but there is no difference between someone breeding one bitch than twenty in my eyes if they do not health test nor have good reasons for breeding - a proven working or showing record.

I am short of money just now, I have a bitch that is now over 8, I would not be allowed to register the pups with the KC, but they would be excellent working, rough-shooting dogs.  And even unregistered would probably fetch about £400 each (Registered more like £700).  She herself works well, has a lovely sweet nature, and has two Challenge Certificates, but I will not breed her again.  I walk the walk as well as talking the talk. 

[SallyintNorth]

You get a similar thing in the pony world.  Some of those that show think the only reason for breeding is to make a show pony, and all homes that don't show such ponies are bad homes (for such ponies.)  Whereas I weep for the ponies (not all show ponies!  But some of them) stuck in stables and minimal grazing, only ever asked to trot in hand, only ever given attention when it's showtime.   

And yes, Annie, I know you work your dogs and have chosen a breed which has to work in order to do well in the show ring - good on yer for that 

To me, I wish there were more breeding from reet nice bitches to reet nice dogs (with health checks, of course) to make reet nice pets.  Working breeds frankly do not make the best pets, some working dogs make lousy pets who will be unhappy and make their owners miserable.  And dogs from generations of showing stock are often not the best of pets, either.  Whereas dogs from generations of breeding reet nice bitches to reet nice dogs (with health checks, of course) probably do make, on the whole, reet nice pups that make reet nice pets.

If it were made more 'cool' and acceptable to have a reet nice bitzer that's a reet nice family pet, I think you just might reduce some of the problems (reduce, not solve) that Annie enumerates.

[doganjo]

I take it you read the news?  Admittedly this is from 2004 but last I heard from our contacts and as a member of Dogs Trust the situation if anything is worse because of the recession - more people trying to make cash by selling puppies, more people dumping dogs because of not being able to feed them or take them to their vet for medicines.
Up to you to believe what you will but these are the facts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3908321.stm

Daily Mail Today Page 22 - yes I read the news and it's not 8 years out of date.
Which dogs are being put down and why

The Dogs Trust, Britain's largest dog welfare charity, says animals were being put to sleep because owners could not be traced or no homes found for them.

"Every dog should be a wanted dog and Dogs Trust will continue to fight for an end to this unnecessary destruction.

"Nationally we can see that this problem is solvable and we are calling on the nation's dog owners to help us achieve this aim sooner rather than later."

The charity has called for owners to neuter and microchip their dogs."