[plumseverywhere]

Sixpence is now 5 months old and following the wonderful disbudding (not) has about 5 scurs growing on his head. They've been dropping off (as with his fellow caprines here) but one seems to be curling under and is not wobbly so I don't think will drop off.
I am concerned it might grow into him.


I found this from DEFRA -


4) Under the Protection of Animals Acts 1911 to 1988 (in Scotland, the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act 1912 to 1988), it is an offence to castrate a goat, which has reached the age of 2 months without the use of an anaesthetic. Furthermore the use of a rubber ring or other device to restrict the flow of blood to the scrotum is only permitted without an anaesthetic if the device is applied during the first week of life. Under the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966, as amended, only a veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner may castrate a goat after it has reached the age of 2 months, or dehorn or disbud a goat, except the trimming of the insensitive tip of an ingrowing horn which, if left untreated, could cause pain or distress.[/size] [/b][/size]
Does this mean that a non-vet can remove the tip to stop it growing inwards? is it something anyone here has done? PM me if you'd rather discuss via PM but I would appreciate some help. (it does look like a little snip with the hoof trimmers would lop enough off to stop it growing in but might need re-doing from time to time)


Lisa

[colliewoman]

With ram lambs in the past I always did the tips myself. I can't think for one minute that the powers that be would have an issue with trimming. Cutting a horn off/stopping blood supply yes but trimming the 'dead' tips no problem IMO

[Brucklay]

Again not done it - sorry Plums - but having had Jacobs with lots of horn problems (thankfully no goat horn problems as we don't disbud) I read a lot about it and from what I have read you can 'snip' the end off to avoid harm to the animal - with the jacobs they mostly knocked them of themselves causing me endless worry!!

[jinglejoys]

Unfortunately this is what happens when the money grabbing "experts" are in charge of the purse strings.Either do what they do in countries where they still farm animals and DIY, or take it to the vet to be redone properlyand refuse to sign the consent form(the one that waves your rights if anything goes wrong and refuse to pay(because they always say bring it back if things aren't right and you have already paid)

[ballingall]

It might depend on how thick the scur is. If it is thin enough that you will be able to definitely cut it then go ahead. But just remember it is possible to put shears to it, he jerks, and the whole scurl comes off and he bleeds heavily. Have actually had that happen once to us, but obviously as yours is only small it may be fine. And I don't think there is anything wrong with attempting it yourself, as long as it is only the tips. We cheese wire off the end of one of our milkers scurl's because it grows back into her head.


Jinglejoys, not sure about your vets, but the only time I have had to sign a consent form is if the goat is getting a medication which is not licenced for it- and even then it's only if the vet isn't sure if the medication will have the desired effect and not an adverse effect.

Beth

[Roxy]

My three very large BT boys came to me already dehorned.  Not a very good job had been done, they all have scurs, and two of them knock them, and they come all wobbly, and then bleed.  The third boy, his has grown back as a horn, and curled round, and is now very close to his eye.
I have spoken with the vet,and said she would cheese wire the horn off, or I could do it myself.  Not sure I could do it, the way its close to his eye.

[Fleecewife]

We sometimes have to take the tips off sheep horns if they start to curl into the face.  You can tell if a horn has an internal blood supply, and where it ends, by feeling the horn - where it's warm there's a blood supply underneath which you don't want to cut through.
 
Most genuine scurs (as opposed to puny horns) don't have much of a blood supply but I don't know what the situation is with a disbudded goat.  Perhaps you should get the vet to do it the first time, watch carefully and ask loads of questions, then do it yourself if they grow back once you know the anatomy of the scurs.
 
For sawing or using a wire close to the eye, get someone to cover the eye with their hand to keep the horn dust out - they will soon let you know if you are getting too close     Using a cheese wire tends to cauterise the smaller blood vessels if you have got a bit close to the blood supply, whereas sawing or using bolt croppers doesn't cauterise it.

[wytsend]

a badly disbudded kid should be re done at the Vet;s expense...........I insist in this if it is the type you describe.
It should be done by theVet anyway just in case blood vessels are involved.    Usually in cases of this nature, the kid wont be knocked out as before but sedated mildly and then the horn base is injected all around....there are up to 8 points in this area which require lignocaine.     The horn is then cheese wired & the hot iron cauterises any blood bit more particularly should be used the destroy any regrowth.
The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons have recently revieiwed disbudding practices and have now stated that even cheesewiring falls outside the remit of owners and MUST be done by Vets.  Apparently there have been many accidents in recent years resulting in goat deaths where owners have attempted to do the job which is why the whole thing has been tightened considerably.

[jaykay]

Cheese wiring only falls outside the remit of the owners when the intention is to go into the part of the horn that contains nerves and blood vessels.

Not when taking off the dead ends of horns.

As Fleecewife says, it's a common job to do on sheep and you can feel the part that's live because it's warm.

[plumseverywhere]

it is a thin tip facing down. Am going to speak to the vet but it feels like a thin bit of cardboard, is cold and almost looks like it could snap its that fragile feeling.


I think jinglejoys and I have had experience of same vet as we live a mile or two apart. I had to sign a consent form for the disbudding and castration. My interpretation of the castration was a red rubber band - goat came home complete with scrotum but not testes having had it done surgically while under GA. DOn't want to say too much on here as the vet has been fantastic with other animals we have and very fair on a financial level (ie. didn't charge to cremate my poor cat who'd been hit on the road when I rang up in tears, too scared to bury him after blardy fox dug last one up     ) and also they've been upfront with how much 'current bill is and do you want to continue treatment' (ie. if you can't afford it, we can stop...)
sorry digressed there...what i mean is, great vet but I'm not sure I have faith in disbudding there as goat kid currently looks like a woodlouse with all these hard bumps on his head. will try get a photo on here

[ballingall]

a badly disbudded kid should be re done at the Vet;s expense...........I insist in this if it is the type you describe.
It should be done by theVet anyway just in case blood vessels are involved.    Usually in cases of this nature, the kid wont be knocked out as before but sedated mildly and then the horn base is injected all around....there are up to 8 points in this area which require lignocaine.     The horn is then cheese wired & the hot iron cauterises any blood bit more particularly should be used the destroy any regrowth.
The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons have recently revieiwed disbudding practices and have now stated that even cheesewiring falls outside the remit of owners and MUST be done by Vets.  Apparently there have been many accidents in recent years resulting in goat deaths where owners have attempted to do the job which is why the whole thing has been tightened considerably.

Jane, David Harwood posted a link just this week about disbudding practice, stating it has finally been reviewed (link below). I note it states "However, schedule 3 specifically provides that these exemptions do not allow non Veterinary surgeons to undertake the disbudding of goats, except the trimming of an insensitive tip of an in growing horn, which, if left untreated, could cause pain or distress."


Seems quite clear there.

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/news-and-events/news/position-on-the-disbudding-of-goats-clarified/


Beth

[Anke]

I have taken ingrowing ends of horns of my shetlands off myself with secateurs - never had any blood or problems. It is a two-person job in any case.
I have also taken goat kids back (only in the first year though), when the vet hadn't done disbuddings for a while..., and he just did the complete procedure again. There was no charge for the second one.
It is very difficult to get a male disbudded completely without any regrowth. Even when they are castrated. Most of my nannies also have wee bits of growth at some time or other, they also always seem to knock them off...
If your boy is fairly calm, you have mum out of the way, and have a strong person to hold him I would have a quick snip with some sharp secateurs at the top myself, but if you are not quite confident it is best to get the vet have a look at it.

[plumseverywhere]

Job is done    1cm off and a clear gap between skull and scur. Jobs a good'n and I can go on holiday fairly relaxed 
Thanks, as always, for all the replies - much appreciated

[ballingall]

Glad to hear 

[Lesley Silvester]

Well done.