NFU Mutual Smallholding Insurance

Author Topic: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings  (Read 7575 times)

asedge

  • Joined Jul 2012
Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« on: July 30, 2012, 10:42:41 pm »
Hello, I am looking for some advice please.

We are in the process of buying a grade II listed building which has 4.5 acres of land which is classed as residential not agricultural. The land at the moment has five ponds, a small area of young woodland and the house in the centre. There is a peremiter fence, but otherwise is pretty much open rough grassland with a few drainage ditches. 

We would want to do a few things with the land, the first and foremost is to fence off the ponds as we have a 4 year old boy with various serious special educational needs and he will be in the pond in a flash, we simply cannot live in the house with the ponds being unfenced. He has no sense of danger, runs off constantly and doesnt follow instructions much like having an untrained puppy!) - one of us would need to tail him 24/7. We are looking at c.180m of post and rial fencing with wire mesh to do this. We would also want to erect various stock fencing to keep pigs, chieckens, ducks and perhaps a couple of lambs for personal consumption only, we would also want to put up a largeish polytunnel.

I (perhaps Niavely) spoke to the conservation officer today who explained that we would need to submit a planning application for all the works, even as minor as the fencing. I also know that there is a neighbour who has nothing better to do than complain, is in a long running arguement with another neighbour over a boundary issue and has complained before when the current owner put up something as minor as a rose arbour.

We are due to exchange contracts in the next week days, I see we have a few options.


1. Apply for planning for everything we want to do and postpone the move until we have consent (couple of months?) - run the risk of losing the house.
2. Buy the house, put up the fencing, apply retrospecticly and also seperately for the polytunnel - run the risk of being turned down and us having to move for the safety of my son.
3. Buy the house, put up temportary fencing to keep my son safe then apply for the permanat post and rail fencing (again running the risk of not being accepted)
4. Ditch the whole thing and wait for an agriculatural smallholding to come on the market, (with no ponds!)thinking long term, if we have to apply for planning everytime we want to build a fence thats more hassle than its worth.

If anyone has any experience of smallholding with listed buildings it would be much appreciated.

Thank you in adcance,
Andrew
Voss Electric Fence

henchard

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Carmarthenshire
    • Two Retirees Start a New Life in Wales
    • Facebook
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2012, 11:01:54 pm »
This is only a personal opinion but unless you have very deep pockets I'd think very carefully about buying a listed building.

clydesdaleclopper

  • Joined Aug 2009
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2012, 11:05:08 pm »
The problem with listed buildings is that anything within the curtilage of the building, which could be the whole area you are buying, is subject to listed building consent. Anything that may affect the character of the building and it's setting will be subject to restrictions and the process is much more onerous than ordinary planning permission. I certainly would not just go ahead and apply retrospectively as that could be a very expensive mistake. I think you have to either hold off purchase until listed building consent has been obtained or look elsewhere.
Our holding has Anglo Nubian and British Toggenburg goats, Gotland sheep, Franconian Geese, Blue Swedish ducks, a whole load of mongrel hens and two semi-feral children.

bangbang

  • Guest
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2012, 11:28:31 pm »
I believe if you buy the property you will automatically have a duty of care and responsibility to animals/persons who are on your property, so fencing can, and should be made a priority for health and safety reasons. If you tell the council that the measures you have taken are for H&S reasons they are less willing to persue it or take court action so they tend to back down. Works to you grade 2 listed building I'm not so sure about. We built a large shed, moved old walls, fenced, then applied in retrospect - we played dumb - we paid the money's due, alls well.

Remember if a burglar hurts himself on your property - you are liable. We have such understanding laws.

I,m sure other people with better  experience in this matter will help too.

asedge

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 07:37:44 am »
Thanks for the replies so far.

In this case I assume that the curtilage will extend to the whole land as there are no physical boundaries between the house and the perminter fence, just an old house sat right in the middle of 4.5 acres of grassland (and some ponds!).

I am just trying to figure out if I can live with needing to apply for planning permission every time I want to change a fence position etc... I also know that our potential "understanding" and supportive neighbour will inform the council of every change as he has done so with the current owner on numorous occasions.

Bionic

  • Joined Dec 2010
  • Talley, Carmarthenshire
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 07:43:39 am »
 I have no knowledge that could help with a situation like this but it does sound as if you could be buying yourself into a load of trouble. To top it all living with nasty neighbours is not pleasant and that in itself would make me think twice.
I hope you manage to get it all sorted
Sally
 
 
Life is like a bowl of cherries, mostly yummy but some dodgy bits

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 08:00:07 am »
TBH if I wanted to do agricultural activities, I would steer clear of this property since it sounds as if the listing covers the whole thing and that will always be a headache. We have a listed building (Scotland, grade B (2* equivalent) but can have a free hand with our land, so long as we dont put anything too near the house and also we try to make things attractive and not dominant to the house.
However I| would be checking that by reading the full listing description (normally available online) to ensure that they are not overreaching or exaggerating since it is fairly unusual for that to be the case.
 

kitchen cottage

  • Guest
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 08:34:49 am »
I've got my solicitors hat on and my listed buildings owners hat on.  I live on a 4 acre plot
 
You need first to look at what was within the listing and the purpose of the listing. 
 
Secondly Curtilage is land that IMMEDIATELY adjoins the building and closely associated outbuildings.  It also had a time element and an element of fixedness.
 
This article may help
 
http://www.ihbc.org.uk/context_archive/97/legal/CTX97%5B6%5D.html
 
It is NOT true that all works on a listed building need planning consent, the rules are more complicated, they may need listed buildings consent but not necessarily planning.
 
I've done a lot of fencing boundary changes etc within my boundary, but not within my curtilage, I haven't needed planning for any on close examination of the rules..  These applications cost £100's each time and are often unnecessary.
 
I would think seriously about buying a house with an awful interfering neighbour though......
 
 

Brucklay

  • Joined Apr 2010
  • Perthshire
    • Brucklay Pygmy Goats
    • Facebook
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 08:36:40 am »
The curtilage should be show on the map in the deeds. When we bought our place - 3 stone walls at the bottom of 5 acres there was only a perimeter fence around the whole lot but the curtilage was just the area around the house - the rest of the land was deemed agricultural and therefore different rules apply.
Pygmy Goats, Shetland Sheep, Zip & Indie the Border Collies, BeeBee the cat and a wreak of a building to renovate!!

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 08:45:43 am »
i work on restoring listed buildings. firstly have you read the listings document? i very much doubt that you would need to apply for planning to erect a fence around a pond, as it isnt a permanent alteration to the fabric of the building. the document will tell all.

asedge

  • Joined Jul 2012
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 09:09:37 pm »
Thanks for all the replies, very useful.

Our solicitors are on the case, I spoke to the old lady who own the house today who said "there are no deeds so you dont need to worry" and "the curtilidge extends to the boundary, but none knows exactly where that is so you shouldnt worry" - may be a while before this is resolved!


bloomer

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Aug 2010
  • leslie, fife
  • i have chickens, sheep and opinions!!!
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 09:10:49 pm »
thats an old lady being evasive, get the solicitors to sort it before you commit as it sounds like a big can of worms!!!


Brucklay

  • Joined Apr 2010
  • Perthshire
    • Brucklay Pygmy Goats
    • Facebook
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 10:25:43 pm »
Agree with Bloomer as there's certain things you can do within your curtilage that doesn't require planning and certain things you can do on agri land that is easier to get planning - so ideally you would like a bit of both (or a least it worked out best for us that way) and certainly don't take it for granted from the 'nice lady next door' ours turned out to be totally nutty!!!! Got sorted in the end and ended up going back a sale but worried me for a while.
Pygmy Goats, Shetland Sheep, Zip & Indie the Border Collies, BeeBee the cat and a wreak of a building to renovate!!

sabrina

  • Joined Nov 2008
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 11:29:24 am »
Sounds like you are walking into a mine field  :o

Mel Rice

  • Joined Sep 2011
Re: Smallholdings and Listed Buildings
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 12:17:10 pm »
Good luck!!!!

 

Reclaiming VAT on new buildings

Started by AndrewMawson

Replies: 5
Views: 1004
Last post July 04, 2017, 06:34:52 pm
by bazzais
Modular buildings

Started by Part time dabbler

Replies: 1
Views: 508
Last post June 22, 2018, 04:31:50 pm
by honeyend
Grampian Steel Buildings

Started by crofter 65

Replies: 1
Views: 1749
Last post November 22, 2014, 09:26:43 pm
by Fishyhaddock
Offgrid buildings/contents insurance?

Started by ricardodba

Replies: 6
Views: 1502
Last post January 07, 2016, 06:25:37 pm
by bazzais
Old Buildings Expert / Architect wanted, Scotland

Started by Womble

Replies: 6
Views: 2517
Last post January 12, 2012, 09:02:18 am
by Rainyplace

Forum sponsors

FibreHut Energy Helpline Thomson & Morgan Time for Paws Scottish Smallholder & Grower Festival Little Peckers

© The Accidental Smallholder Ltd 2003-2019. All rights reserved.

Design by Furness Internet

Site developed by Champion IS