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Author Topic: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's  (Read 3122 times)

FiB

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • Bala, North Wales
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Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« on: July 13, 2012, 06:00:42 pm »
Thoughts turning to Autumn (give summer a miss shall we, this year :-J ) and tupping... Have had my nose buried in Tim Tynes book and there are a few things I cant get my head around...  Mostly to do with sponging, teasing and making sure they are all covered within the context of a hired in ram


I have 14 shearlings - 8 Beulah, 5 Lleyn (and one pet lleyn/leicester cross) - Would people recommend keeping the Beulah or the Lleyn 'pure' - I'm planning to sell 5 couples next year (and keep the rest for own breeding and meat) so which would have the best value?


I'll be trying to hire in a Lleyn or Beulah ram, so I expect I'll be getting him when is convenient to owners, if its possible at all - may have to make do with a neighbour's ram?  How long do you usually get a hired tup for and what is an average/sensible price?  (I'm not expecting a champion pedigree)
 
Id like to plan for April Lambing.  Given that I am hiring in, teasing is out...sponging I dont like the idea of ... so I guess I'm signing up for a prolonged lambing period?? (Assuming I can afford to keep the ram for long enough?)


Lastly given that I only have 14 shearlings, and the 2 very 'poor doers' are dead, would you still sort and cull?  They are all looking pretty good at this point, but OH and I are having big debates about weather we should still be sorting for best and worst and getting rid of worst (personally I am finding it hard to judge - I need a lesson in condition assessing and feet judging!).  What do you do if you have similar sized flocks?  My gut is that they all look OK and to give them a try.


Phew!  Who knew sheep shagging was such a complicated thing? :eyelashes:

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2012, 06:22:41 pm »
Lambed for the first time this year so not attempting to give you much advice.  ::)


We loaned our tup. He arrived at the end of October and the thinking was that we kept him until June time. I think because it is easier for him to return to his group of rams once the breeding season is over and hormones have settled.


Our lambing was spread over just short of one month. So he obviously got on with the job.  ;D  No teasers or anything .... just popped him straight in there.


Think the saying goes that if you put the tup in on Bonfire night ...... lambs due first week in April.


Not sure what is usual, but we did not have to pay for the ram ..... just agree to look after him in the same way we would our girls through the winter months. That was through our breed society.






Sorry that's the end of my teeny bit of knowledge.  ::)

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 06:29:09 pm »
Why is teasing out? I'm sure you could pick up a 'for meat' ram lamb that is otherwise healthy and have him vasectomised. Were I you and wanting to sell the couples, Id breed the Lleyn pure, as you could sell them anywhere for good money.


Lleyns don't need much flushing to be honest as they are prone to multiples and I know some folk negative flush them to get more singles and twins.


It is usual to pay for the ram, but more and more people are (rightly) deciding to close their flocks so it may not be easy to get one.

FiB

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • Bala, North Wales
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Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 08:20:14 pm »
Thank you thank you both  :)  Informative and reassuring. (Not to deter other answers).


Really stupid question coming up...


so would a vasectomised ram still need to be kept separate the rest of the year - I know he's 'firing blanks' but would he still be 'lerving'/pestering  (depeding on whether they like it or not??!!) his ladies? ???   And if I had to keep him separate, wouldnt he be lonely?  :eyelashes:    I would like to keep a closed flock but I didnt think I had enough ewes to 'satisfy' a ram (dont blame me - thats my farmer neighbour's words!!), nor enough land to effect separation.  Although I'm confused about that, since he also said that ewes only come into season once, at the right time (so why cant you run a mixed flock?)


...Told you!  A LOT to learn (and me a biologist too!).

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 08:51:36 pm »
If you had your own ram and paddocks allow separation, then I think he would need a wether for company.
We are pondering this one at the moment with our little flock so will keep an eye on responses from those with more knowledge.


We had problems with our tup becoming aggressive as the ewes came close to lambing time ...... both to us and towards the ewes to some extent. They were certainly happier once he was returned to his owner (who kindly had him back earlier than planned). We had no wether to keep him company and so could not separate and I think he would have found a way to get back to the main flock anyway ..... a pretty determined fella.  ::)  It would have been impossible to assist ewes with him in the field and the children were banned from the paddock that he was in. We may have just been unlucky and others may have better experiences.


Tim Tyne said that the tup could have become aggressive because he was kept with the ewes and since they were fed regularly he was getting "pushy" for the feed.  ???


Primitives tend to come into season in the autumn but from what I read/have been told even they are not totally reliable. Sorry, don't know about other breeds but I guess it is the same.


We are not sure about keeping our own tup yet. We found things simpler with just the ewes ..... as beginners to all this. So confusing.




ScotsGirl

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Wiltshire
Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 10:04:19 pm »
Tupping hire can be anything from £50-100.  I hired for a few years then last year bought a ram.  He is a gorgeous big Suffolk and very soppy although he can pack a punch as my OH finds out when he stupidly turns his back! I kept him with my 12 ewes until January then moved him out with another bottle fed ram who will go for slaughter in September.
 
I have kept them in an enclosure near the girls over the summer and they are quite happy and don't bother.  The only thing I would say is be careful when you leave two boys together. Not sure if different with a wether but the smaller ram was beating up my big boy and they really set to after shearing and I had to separate them for several weeks.
 
I'd hire if you can but don't shy away from buying if you have a secure paddock he can go into pre-lambing and through the summer

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Planning for tupping....some Newby Q's
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 12:13:51 am »
You don't need to tease.  If you prepare your girls well and tup at a natural time of year for them, you should get 98% to hold to the first service within the first 17 days.

I know whereof I speak, that's what I routinely achieved with 530+ ewes on a hill farm.

Anyone who doesn't lamb in the first 34 days has had a problem and wouldn't have held to a first service anyway.  So in my not-very-humble opinion, teasing is, in your situation, pointless.

Unless you can only get a tup for 17 days, I suppose.  Then, if you can borrow a tup or a teaser to run next door to the girls, you'd have them all cycling ready for the hired-in guy.

I'm sure Tim covers preparing the girls well in his book, but the basics are to have them fit but not fat, and if you want multiple births, on a 'rising plane of nutrition' (more in a mo.)  For an April lambing you'll be tupping in November, so there won't be worms to worry about but if you're in a fluke area then make sure they're fluked before tupping and every 6 weeks (get the exact repeat dates from the meds you use) till spring.  Give them a good chelated mineral drench either before (if you want multiple births) or immediately after (to ensure maximum implantation and early foetal development.)   Some people put energy buckets out for them while they're getting tupped.

On a rising plane of nutrition means their intake is increasing, either in quantity or quality or both.  Two months before tupping, find any which are really thin - condition less than 2 - and give them 1/2lb cake per day for a couple of weeks.  They should fitten a little - it'll take a month to have any significant effect but you should see an improvement after two weeks.  Any ewes who are condition 3 two months before are too fit; put them on your poorest ground and try to pull them back to 2.5 or less before tupping.

At two weeks before tupping you ideally want all of them at just under 2.5, so you can give them your best grass, or a bit of cake, or energy buckets to put them on that rising plane of nutrition.  A good chelated mineral drench will also contribute.

Don't forget that the tup needs to be even fitter than the ewes.  It takes 6 weeks to produce sperm, so in the case of a hired tup you are very much in the hands of whoever ran him before you did.  If they didn't keep him well-fed while he worked, and/or had him covering too many ewes and/or too large an area, he could be run down and subfertile when he comes to you.  All you can do is make sure he gets (or has been given) a chelated mineral drench and fluking if appropriate, and then feed him well while he is working for you.  A tup with 50 ewes would need a good couple of pounds of cake a day - some of them work so hard they don't stop to graze!  ;)  You don't have the sort of numbers that would strain him, but I'd still give him at least a pound of cake a day.

You want to cull ewes who shouldn't lamb again - missing teeth, bad bags.  You could cull or draft ewes who shouldn't lamb for you again - drafting is selling as breeding ewes ("fully correct" - ie, good teeth, good bags) to someone who has easier ground than you.  Hill flocks often draft at 2- or 3-crop; she'll go on and do well on a lowland farm, having maybe another 3 or even 4 crops down there, but after another crop on the hill she'd be ready to cull.   Some lowland farms buy in all their breeding ewes this way. 

If you are hiring a tup it may worth considering vaccinating your ewes against certain conditons that could be brought in with the tup.  Talk to your vet about the recommendations for your area.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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