[jaykay]

I've just watched something that really troubles me.

Lomi, one of my goat kids, has just stuck her head through the stock fencing to next door and got stuck. She's at that age when her horns are not big enough to prevent her doing this but sufficient to get stuck (before anyone says is, Old English are horned, they just are, no-one disbuds).

The disturbing bit is that Ellie (her auntie) was headbutting the kid, who couldn't get away 

Fortunately, I am off work today with some shivery sort of bug and I was awake and sitting in the conservatory out the back so saw it all. On a normal day I wouldn't have been back til 6pm.

My question is - if I get rid of Ellie (cries at the thought of it) is this sort of behaviour inevitable and will another goat assume this sort of bullying role?

I sold Maisie and her kid (Maisie was Ellie's kid) because Ellie bullied her and now E bullies Rowan and Rowan's kids. Generally there is enough space and they don't bother each other when out and about, but for this instance. I pen E when they're shut in the byre together.

When I bought E, her coming to me had to be delayed because another goat (her grandmother I think) had bashed E and broken her rib. Maybe I've just bought a vicious strain 

Don't know what to do but very worried if the incident had happened when I was at work or out.

[doganjo]

I think what you have seen may have been opportunism.  Many types of animals do the same - if they see one trapped they either try to help or try to kill to eliminate the problem from the herd/pack.  I've seen it with dogs, hens, ducks, sheep. 
I think if Ellie doesn't bully when they have space to get away from her they will be fine, but if you think she has come from a vicious line then perhaps you need to do something else.  She may be 'fear defensive' rather than really aggressive if she was beaten up before you got her.

Good luck sorting it out.

[jinglejoys]

Sounds like there is not enough of an escape route for the one to get away.I have a bully in my group so have to adapt for her(Chevron sandwhiches have come to mind occasionally )
  If you have trouble with the youngster sticking her head through the fence(mine can't usually because of the offset electric strand) I should put a stick across the horns wider than the gap and tie it on with tape (don't use red or you will have some busybody telling you you have a goat who's head is bleeding as happened to me once )
  someones put a picture on FB goatwisdom of their goat with the same set up I'll see if I can find/copy/;paste it for you

[jinglejoys]

Here we are its a Pygmy but you get the jist

[jaykay]

Right, that seems to be what my little ones need.

Shouldn't stop them suckling, should it?

I had an electric strand in the goat paddock but once the kids are this big, I let them out ino the ghyll, so the fence that's the problem is my neighbour's.

I'll find some sticks.

[SallyintNorth]

{{{{{HUGS}}}}} jaykay, what a horrible dilemma.   

And more {{{{{HUGS}}}}} for the shivery bug thing.  Got something similar myself, head full of cottonwool and - well, no-one wants or needs to know about the rest of my symptoms.  So mutual {{{{{HUGS}}}}} and hot toddies.

Back to naughty bossy Ellie.  As you know I ain't a goat expert, so anything I proffer could be complete nonsense.  That said, is it the case in goats as in hens and cows that there'll be a boss, and if the current boss is removed another will just step up into that space?  (But maybe be less spiteful with it, I suppose.)

We ate Gaby-pig because she was aggressively bossy with Meg-pig and I couldn't see how having the two of them rearing litters together could possibly work, therefore.  Now Meg-pig has two of her daughters running with her, and bosses them - but I have to say, nothing like as aggressively as Gaby was with her.  Although one did have a nasty welt on her shoulder the other day...

We get spiteful aggression in the cattle too - what works best there seems to be getting a bigger stronger cow to teach the young upstart a lesson.  The older cattle mostly seem to grow out of the 'because I can' sort of bullying - but they don't all, and occasionally a favourite has to go.  (RIP Pet.   So lovely with us and so horrid to all her peers.)



I love the headdress; if I still had Swales I'd be tempted... nah, we used to have 150 of the little imps...!

[Penninehillbilly]

could you just run a strand of wire round your side of the fence? if she respects the wire from the paddock she's unlikely to go near it, current or not.

[in the hills]

Never had goats, but my Soay seem to take it in turns to be cross with the lambs and give them a good butt. Did worry me at first because of those horns . I suppose in most cases because they are not housed, they have room to escape. Guess it is no more than establishing a pecking order in most cases. If they are stuck or housed I can see it being more of a problem.


I have seen a similar contraption on the horns of adult Soay that kept getting stuck in fences 


Hope you are feeling better soon. 

[jaykay]

Thank you - don't like feeling ill or taking time off work but the guardian angel of feisty goat kids was looking out for Lomi today 

There's too much fencing, and strimming, needed for me to keep it all with an electric strand really.

Once their horns are grown it doesn't happen, so I will be constructing headdresses this evening 

[Roxy]

My kids are poking their heads through the stock netting now.  AN;s are dusbudded so can get back through ok, but the pygmy kids have horns, so they could get stuck, and yes, have seen the other goats butting one stuck, but she wriggled and got free.
 
I do try and put chicken wire along the bottom three squares of stock wire to stop little heads, but this is not always practical.  They do tend to outgrow poking their heads through, once something else takes their attention!!

[jaykay]

Job done.
One hates it and is crying, one is a bit curious as to what's happened and the other one doesn't care a bit.





It was an interesting job to do on my own! As you can see, the last one wriggled a bit 

[SallyintNorth]

Awwww, bless 


Waddya call a goat with a stick on its head? 
Edward. 

Waddya call a goat with three sticks on its head? 
Edward Woodward.


Waddya call a goat with a stick?
Rod.


Sorry, just couldn't resist.  Daaaannn - little demon emotiwotsit required please... 

[Anke]

Your dark brown kid is absolutely gorgeous! What a colour!

[jaykay]

Sally - groan! 

Anke, thank you - I think they're gorgeous too, though it's possible I'm biased  That one is Ria, and she is looking for a home, so is Lomi the dark & white one. The pale one, Cali, has a home already.

I hope this doesn't stop them feeding  Might need to go and lurk in the byre for a bit. It's vilely midgy out there though 

[Brucklay]

Sorry I missed all this - we have pygmy's and I keep them horned but so far haven't had any 'head in fence' issues - that was the jacob lambs would to that - constantly and damage their horns which used to really bother me - I wish I'd seen the stick solution them. Re bullying I'm sure it's all pecking order stuff - I find if a mum had been in for a few days after kidding she reintroduces herself to everyone with a bit of butting her and there to the one's she feels are lower down the ladder - so having sorted the head in fence issue I would like to think everyone will be happy Jaykay.

PS They are beautiful