[Tamsaddle]

I am trying to be ultra careful this year so our Tamworth and Saddleback weaners don't end up too fat, but even at 14 weeks, and appearing to the eye to have long and thin bodies, I am already finding it hard to "feel" the backbone.   On a couple of them I can feel ribs, where their waist should be.  Can they possibly be putting on fat yet?    They are currently on 3.1 lbs/1.4 kgs nut each per day.   Is this too much?   I was thinking of really restricting them from 4 months +, but wonder whether I should be doing it sooner.  Tamsaddle

[Fowgill Farm]

Tam
in my opinion you're doing the right regime, 3.1lb for 14wks is perfect, once you get to 4lbs+ then stay at that if you think they loading it on, don't diet them while they're growing. We maintain feed at recommended 1lb per month of age upto 20-22wks then cut back to 4lb, our back fat is approx 15-20mm which is what we want on our GOS.
HTh
mandy 

[Button End Beasts]

We are currently feeding our 5 pigs mainly pig nuts but, when we have barley, taking a scoop of pig nuts out of the feed and replacing it with 4 scoops of barley, e.g. As you would do with fresh fruit or veg on a 4 :1 ratio. I am guessing now, after all your replies, this would be too much. Any idea what is a good ratio with barley, eg if the pigs are on 4 lbs of food a day, how much of that could be made up of barley?


Interestingly, our last bacon pigs, the saddlebacks, we're not fed any barley and we substituted one 1 lb of pig nuts for 4 lbs of apples. And these were the fat ones, but then they were 9.5 months old, and they probably did get some extra apples! We didn't feel the spine to assess fat, we did try to work out their weight using a tape measure but got this very wrong. In fact, the weight was only just accepted at the small local abattoir we use.


Meant to feel their spines this morning at feed time but forgot as i spent so much time chasing one of the pigs around trying to get a tape measure around Curly Wurly, she was having one of it!

[Fowgill Farm]

Afraid i'm not very scientific but to me Barley is a'complete' food and i would probably feed it lb for lb.
My porkers go at 40" round the chest and my baconers at 45"+ (7.5-8mths old)
 
By the sounds of it you just let the older ones go on too long at 9.5mths old send 'em sooner!   especially with them being SB's.
 
Mandy 

[SallyintNorth]

The Newcastle document http://www.britishpigs.org/Newcastle_handbook_of_raw_materials.pdf
says barley is a good cereal for pigs though as it is lower energy than wheat could be less useful in the finishing stages.  It says that barely should be ground (or if not possible, soaked in water for 24 hours) to improve digestibility.  It's 9% protein, 13% energy and a good source of lysine (0.32%.)  On those figures, use it to replace pig feed at a ratio of 1:1 - in fact, it says that a dry sow or a finishing mix is likely to be 50% barley in any case.

[Button End Beasts]

Thanks Sally that looks like a very usefull document. Thanks too for everyone else's advIce.

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks Sally that looks like a very usefull document. Thanks too for everyone else's advIce.

It was violet originally brought it to our attention.  Haven't seen her for a while - anyone know if she's okay?

[oaklandspigs]

The Newcastle document http://www.britishpigs.org/Newcastle_handbook_of_raw_materials.pdf
says barley is a good cereal for pigs though as it is lower energy than wheat could be less useful in the finishing stages.  It says that barely should be ground (or if not possible, soaked in water for 24 hours) to improve digestibility.  It's 9% protein, 13% energy and a good source of lysine (0.32%.)  On those figures, use it to replace pig feed at a ratio of 1:1 - in fact, it says that a dry sow or a finishing mix is likely to be 50% barley in any case.

 
My understanding may be awry, but I thought the newcastle document stated that the lysine needed for growing pigs was 1.1% of Digestible matter, and that barley produced only .32%, meaning that overfeeding was needed to produce adequate proteins to make muscle, resulting in wasted intake or if fed 1:1 would result in slower growth.
 
Whilst I would agree that I would substitute on a 1:1 basis (just as I would not feed 3 MacDonalds burgers to make up for the fact that one meal would not supply sufficient vitamins), I would be more hesitant to suggest that feeding only barley would be a good regime.

[SallyintNorth]

Whilst I would agree that I would substitute on a 1:1 basis (just as I would not feed 3 MacDonalds burgers to make up for the fact that one meal would not supply sufficient vitamins), I would be more hesitant to suggest that feeding only barley would be a good regime.

I don't think anyone did suggest 100% barley, did they?  Only looking at how much to reduce pellets if barley was being fed?

But yes, if straight barley was a significant proportion of the ration, the overall lysine should be watched.  (Where would you get extra from?  Is there any legal alternative - other than soya?)

[oaklandspigs]

Sorry SiN had misunderstood.
 
There are s'posed to be mixes you can buy which have lysine and mineral/vits in, but suspect you'd need to buy in industrial qauntities, and have not seen a source.
 
 

[MAK]

As far as I have read - Lysine is one of the 8/20 amino acids that can not be made but has to be ingested and is an essential building block in the synthesis of many long proteins ( elastin and colagen) . I gather that it is essential for the uptake of calcium for strong bones and important in the immune system. Meat is rich in lysine as are some fish but this dosn't help the pigs.   

Lysine is found in eggs ( 7% of potien content), cheese and milk. It is also found in seaweed, spirulina, cottonseed oil, Apples, apricots, grapes, papayas, pears, alfalfa, beets, carrots, celery, cucumber, dandelion greens, soybeans (particularly tofu, isolated soy protein, and defatted soybean flour),parsley, spinach, turnip greens

Legumes ( any beans or pulses) and brewers yeast are all high in lysine.

I throw in an egg a day with the pigs hard food and veg mix but it seems that parmessan cheese is the real lysine winner. So a nice courgette, dipped in eggs and coated in parmessan could be a real treat for a pig.

[robert waddell]

only in france MAK

[SallyintNorth]

I throw in an egg a day with the pigs hard food and veg mix but it seems that parmessan cheese is the real lysine winner. So a nice courgette, dipped in eggs and coated in parmessan could be a real treat for a pig.

It'd be a treat for me, never mind the pig!

And if we're looking at supplementing lysine because we're trying to take advantage of some cheaper dietary components... I don't think using parmesan would result in an overall cost saving! 

[HappyHippy]

The chap I'd spoken to at Sugar Mountain farm in Vermont http://sugarmtnfarm.com/home raises pastured pigs and suppliments lysine via dairy products. He finishes 'big' pigs (Tamworth, Large Blacks, Hampshires etc) on a diet of 90% pasture and hay, 7% dairy and 3% roots.
He's running what I consider to be a big herd (40 sows, 4 boars) and doesn't buy commercial pig feed at all  He's been doing it this way for over 12 years too, so it must work 
Have a look at his website - loads of great info on there, and Walter was happy to answer all my pesky questions when I contacted him 
HTH
Karen 

[oaklandspigs]

He is also a very keen advocate of ignoring boar taint - and talks of 3 year old working boars being fine!