[SteveHants]

I think there comes a point with rare breed livestock when there are only a few examples/flocks that you have to consider outcrossing rather than inbreed anymore. But, then you do get people frothing at the mouth about the 'purity' of lines of stock, and to them I say - a rare breed is not the same as an endangered speices of wild animal.

[Penninehillbilly]

Once discussing this with a friend, she said 'linebreeding is when it works out right, inbreeding is when it all goes wrong', ie problems surfacing.
I'm a little concerned at the number of times certain males are in my Toggs lines, their breeder suggested I used the same male she was using (not hers) and when I checked up he has the same males in his line, but apparently there is a shortage of decent Togg males and he is one of the best, he was used on her sister last year and I believe the female kid was at the Yorkshire show. mine both kidded OK with healthy kids.
I was told using completely unrelated male could introduce faults, (or show them up more?).

[jaykay]

I think there comes a point with rare breed livestock when there are only a few examples/flocks that you have to consider outcrossing rather than inbreed anymore

Absolutely. There are only a few separate lines in Rough Fells. Some of the best breeders I'm sure quietly introduce a Scottish Blackface tup occasionally, but because of the muttering they never say they do. It's just that they also happen to keep Blackies....and interestingly, those folk breed some of the best Roughs and win lots of the prizes.

[Fleecewife]

I think that happens alot in certain breeds jaykay     It will all surface once the breeds are all genotyped.
 
The point though, going back to the original question, is that there is no difficulty finding totally unrelated animals to breed together in the Shetland breed.  If it's fine fleece you want there are endless wonderful tups around who will have that characteristic but are unrelated to Brucklay's ewes.  The same with many other chracteristics.  The only area I can think of with Shetlands where some line-breeding may be needed is with the production of Gulmogets.
However, when that is done it is with a full knowledge and understanding of the mechanisms at play.  Yes in some very rare animals, both wild and domestic, careful in-breeding and line-breeding have to be carried out, always after a very careful assessment of the situation.  Within a sheep breed with a good and healthy population such as the Shetland it should be avoided.

[princesspiggy]

glumogets? 

[doganjo]

I think that happens a lot in certain breeds jaykay     It will all surface once the breeds are all genotyped.

Will it though?  A gentleman I know from Laboklin explained to me about dog breeds.  They take the DNA from one dog and will be able find out every other breed that went into that particular dog.  They don't have all the possible breeds as yet and it will be a while before they do, but are they not just going to end up with a huge jigsaw puzzle just as it is now?  All breeds are made up of others, and they themselves of yet more 'ad infinitum' or rather 'ad canis lupus'.  So my Allez will be made up of English Setter, Gordon Setter, French hunting Spaniel, English Pointer(we already know that) - all of these in turn are made up of  da de da de da - etc, so his DNA will show up probably hundreds of breeds which will all eventually show as going back to the wolf - see what I mean? 

[kanisha]

depends on which breeds you are talking about with sheep unlike dogs the primititives are considered the  first wave of domesticated breeds and as such have not had a large amount of genetic input from cross breeding. In the main the primitives are localised and related populations unlike modern breeds where there is a significant amount of cross breeding to produce a particular type of sheep.

[doganjo]

depends on which breeds you are talking about with sheep unlike dogs the primititives are considered the  first wave of domesticated breeds and as such have not had a large amount of genetic input from cross breeding. In the main the primitives are localised and related populations unlike modern breeds where there is a significant amount of cross breeding to produce a particular type of sheep.

Yes, I understand that but where did sheep originally devolve from? Will DNA be able to trace that far back in any species?


This is the chap I was trying to remember about, Robert Bakewell
Couple of interesting articles about him


[size=78%]http://peoplemakingplaces.org.uk/places/charnwood_history/bakewell.htm[/size]


-[size=78%]http://georgiangentleman.posterous.com/73297943[/size]

[kanisha]

This is one study that I particularly love it is ingenious

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5926/532.abstract

but there are plent y of others using different genetic assessments.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/9/1776.full#F3


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1840082/

all of these are free to view although you may have to register first to view the full articles.

[Fleecewife]

All sheep are sheep and will have sheep DNA - which itself will not be so very different from bear DNA or human DNA - we are all mammals and we are all terrestrial lifeforms.  So it is the differences at certain loci which show up what is a sheep.  Then within sheep, hopefully there will be some more differences, probably very small and maybe not totally clearcut, which will be pointers to the different breeds.  So maybe you are right and the admixture of blood from other breeds will not show up all that clearly, especially at first as we are learning what's what.  Later genome studies will be refined, just so long as there's profit in it 
This is my take on it, but I haven't looked at the links you have posted yet.

[kanisha]

It is worth looking at the first study it uses a quirk in the sheep genome and demonstrates breed relationships quite nicely and also groups primitives as being apart from other breeds .

[Fleecewife]

glumogets? 

Gulmoget is a Shetland sheep breed colour pattern which is quite unusual, but some mainland breeders specialise in it.  The pattern is like that of the mouflon-type Soay, so dark brown with a pale underside and round the tail, plus teardrops - a reverse katmoget in a way.

[Fleecewife]

It is worth looking at the first study it uses a quirk in the sheep genome and demonstrates breed relationships quite nicely and also groups primitives as being apart from other breeds .

I will look but later, I promise     Just now the sun is shining and I can't bear to stay inside much longer 

[VSS]

Personally I don't have a problem with line breeding,which we do quite often to fix "type and to duplicate desirable characteristics, and very occasionally we have inbred. BUT, you do have to be rigourous in getting rid of anything that does not come up to the mark or has any sort of problem.

Generally we buy in rams but do occasionally keep a home bred tup for line breeding purposes.

[colliewoman]

glumogets? 

Gulmoget is a Shetland sheep breed colour pattern which is quite unusual, but some mainland breeders specialise in it.  The pattern is like that of the mouflon-type Soay, so dark brown with a pale underside and round the tail, plus teardrops - a reverse katmoget in a way.

The 2 darker ones at the front, the one on the right is easiest to see