Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: showing ???  (Read 8475 times)

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
showing ???
« on: May 14, 2012, 11:13:49 am »
Our children are keen to try showing our Soay.

Any tips on training for this, anyone? Wouldnt want to do anything too stressful for them.

Do you have to wash them?  :o

When do you start halter training and how?

Are my shearlings too old to train?

I have Tim Tynes Sheepie book on order and it maybe covered in there but I think I am in for a big wait for my copy so any help/thoughts appreciated.  :D

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: showing ???
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 01:09:30 pm »
go to a show and ask the sheepie folk they  might be as friendly as the piggy peps :farmer:

Karen-Louise

  • Joined May 2012
  • Cheshire
  • Champion Kerry Hill Flock
Re: showing ???
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 11:52:07 am »
Hi there  :wave:

Im sure everbody does things differently but personally i start to introduce the halter as soon as i have weaned them, just to put down some ground rules and to ensure the halter is routine and nothing to be feared.  You can start with your shearling but i would suggest you put the halter on everyday from now on so it becomes part of your daily routine.  I usually take mine for a walk each day down the farm drive and let them graze a little so they become relaxed and are very happy to see you with the halter   :D

Check your society breed standard for how you need to present in the ring, for my Kerry's i have to wash them at least 6 weeks before a show so the wool can return to normal and isnt floppy, i then have to trim the wool and facial markings to perfection, which usually means lots of late nights before the show day   ::)
Above all enjoy it, the show day is wonderful and lots of fun!!

Good luck if you decide to go ahead with your show and let me know how you get on   :thumbsup:

Karen-Louise

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: showing ???
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 02:50:20 pm »
Soay are primitives - you show them 'off the hill' ie as they come, just pick off any muck.  Obviously you wouldn't show a daggy one, but you don't do all the washing, trimming and polishing that other breeds require.   You could brush them down a few days before the show, especially if it's going to rain afterwards so the fleece can go back to natural before judging.
There are very few places where there are Soay only classes, mostly they join in the 'any other native breed' class, and judges often haven't a clue about Soay  ::)   So it's worth finding out about the show you hope to enter and who's judging it, also which other breeds will be entered.

Depending on the show, the judge and the country, they may be shown loose and just caught up for a close inspection.  I think that at Melton they are shown on the halter, but not at any of the Scottish shows I have attended.  If they are shown loose, you still need to do some training so they are used to being handled.  Soay have a habit of throwing themselves upside down on the ground just when you want them to behave, so getting that out of their systems before a show is a good idea  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 02:54:38 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

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Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

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jaykay

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Cumbria/N Yorks border
Re: showing ???
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 04:06:18 pm »
Quote
Soay have a habit of throwing themselves upside down on the ground just when you want them to behave
:D

smudger

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • North Devon/ West Exmoor
Re: showing ???
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 10:40:28 pm »
Soay have a habit of throwing themselves upside down on the ground just when you want them to behave, :

Not unlike children then ;)
Traditional and Rare breed livestock -  Golden Guernsey Goats, Blackmoor Flock Shetland and Lleyn Sheep, Pilgrim Geese and Norfolk Black Turkeys. Capallisky Irish Sport Horse Stud.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: showing ???
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 08:24:44 am »
Thanks everyone.

Some good points that have made me think.

Karen-Louise - not sure that there is a breed standard for them. I did ask about this once because when enquiring about the loan of a tup, I was asked which colour lambs I would like to get and I said I wasnt bothered just that any lambs I bred were healthy and of sound and typical conformation. Think the reply was that there was no breed standard because that may mean that the natural diversity within the breed was lost as people bred to the standard. Mmmmmm ...... will explore that more  ??? How would they judge if there is nothing to judge against? Not too bothered as I just see it as a way of letting children get more involved with their animals.

Fleecewife - Good to know I wouldnt have to wash them!!! Dont think I could put them through that and interesting to know they are sometimes shown loose. I know people can get a lot of pleasure from showing and I suppose it is a good way of raising awareness of rare breeds but stress to the sheep would worry me.

Robert - Yeah, will chat to people at Builth.

Smudger - Yes, toddler tantrums! Son is 13 now and back to the days of throwing himself on the floor  ;D The Soay are easier to handle, believe me.  ::)

VSS

  • Joined Jan 2009
  • Pen Llyn
    • Viable Self Sufficiency.co.uk
Re: showing ???
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 11:13:05 am »
Soay have a habit of throwing themselves upside down on the ground just when you want them to behave, :

It's not only soays that do that ::)
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Tilly

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • "Possibilities and miracles mean the same thing"
Re: showing ???
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 11:58:08 am »

Hi in the hills  :wave:
What a wonderful way to get the children more involved with your sheep, but it does need some HARD WORK and dedication  to get your sheep tame enough for the judge to handle -especially if the children are showing them. ;D
In this area, sheep must be halter trained   (stipulated in the rules), and obviously a sheep that won`t stand still in the show ring cannot be seen at its best. The judge will want to closely inspect your sheeps teeth, eyes, wool, feet, and confirmation... .....me at a little one day show ,showing a GFD ewe.

---As already suggested try to get along to some shows and have a chat with some of the exhibitors.
 
Many of the showing people are  very competitive :-\ ::) and a small one day show would be a good starter show and not to overwhelming for the new comer.I certainly do not want to put you off though, it`s a really fun thing to do, and you will soon make friends and get to know what to do.
You will need a white stockmans coat and white halters for the sheep

---and as Karen-louise has said have fun. :)

(Note to Karen, posting -pictures look on "forum tips" this one was from my photobucket account .)

Tilly  :wave:

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: showing ???
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 12:22:59 pm »
Arrrr ...... Tilly thanks for your reply. That looks such a calm, peaceful scene.

And thats what worries me! Not sure that I know how to go about reproducing that scene with my feisty girls. I did show dogs as a girl and young woman but cant quite imagine how to even start with halter training sheep for the ring. Think it might be too late to start my ewes (2 yr olds) but I do have one little ewe lamb. Even catching her is a difficult task at the moment though.

Will ask lots of questions at Builth - especially of people with primitives.   ;D

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: showing ???
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 03:39:14 pm »

Karen-Louise - not sure that there is a breed standard for them. I did ask about this once because when enquiring about the loan of a tup, I was asked which colour lambs I would like to get and I said I wasnt bothered just that any lambs I bred were healthy and of sound and typical conformation. Think the reply was that there was no breed standard because that may mean that the natural diversity within the breed was lost as people bred to the standard. Mmmmmm ...... will explore that more  ??? How would they judge if there is nothing to judge against?

Lets look at breed standards.  In fact there are standards and descriptions, and each reflects the origin of any particular breed.  Many of the breeds available today are 'manmade' such as the Suffolk, which was produced by crossing the Norfolk Horn with...um..the Southdown?  Something like that anyway.  The object was to get a big hefty sheep to suit a particular need.  However, the genotype of the animals ie their genetic make-up, doesn't really matter - as long as they look like a Suffolk then they are a Suffolk - in broad terms anyway.  What is not wanted is something which may have the same colouring but is weedy and has wool a foot long.  So, they have drawn up a breed standard against which to judge the phenotype of the sheep ie what it looks like.  With this breed, it is important that all the animals are pretty much like all the others.  Of course there are differences, but breeders strive to reach the ideal Suffolk type.
With an ancient breed however, the genotype is of supreme importance, because the aim is to preserve the genetic make-up of these animals, as much as anything in order to use those genes to produce further manmade breeds as changing times and climate dictate.  As with plant breeding, you go back to the original pure type to make the cross, which helps to get a uniform first generation cross.
However, the primitive breeds (I'm not talking all rare breeds here because not all are primitives of course) have a wonderful diversity within their genetic make-up, so they have more to bring to a mix than a standardised manmade breed might have.  In order to maintain this diversity, a breed standard is inappropriate, so a breed description is used.  This gives more leeway to allow variation in the type.  For example, in Hebrideans the animals can have two horns, or no horns, or four or even more horns and still be a perfectly acceptable specimen of the breed.  The description though does not allow for the animals to be too large, or to have white faces, or to have tails below the hock.  The purpose of this is to exclude phenotypic signs ie those you can see, of the mixing in of other breeds genes (which you can't see, other than by these outward signs).
Going back to Soays, they do now, very sadly, have a breed standard, imposed by the RBST a couple of years ago when things were 'updated' and rethought.  I questioned the RBST about this at the time but I was pretty much of a lone voice.  The SSS did try to object but they were steamrollered too.

In the show ring, the judge is primarily looking for a good specimen of a sheep, then after that he or she will look to see that it conforms to the breed standard or description.  After all, an animal may have the right number of horns, the right coloured fleece, and its tail may be just right, but if its teeth aren't on the pad so it can't eat efficiently, or it's down on its pasterns so can't walk around to reach its food, or it has only one teat, then it's going to be rather useless as a breeding sheep.
Have you had a look at the Soay website to see if there is any guidance on there as to what the judges are looking for?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 03:49:29 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: showing ???
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 09:05:35 am »
Fleecewife, thank you for that clear explanation. That is pretty much what I thought the person I loaned my ram from said. Thought she said that there was no breed standard but I may have misheard so I think I will email her about that when I update her on the progress of our little flock. It will be good to know even if we decide that showing is not for us or the girls. I checked the Soay site and can only see what I consider a brief description of the breed rather than a standard ..... though I maybe comparing it too much to breed standards in the doggy showing world (all I have experience of).

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
    • Facebook
Re: showing ???
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 10:59:35 am »
Fleecewife thank you for what I felt was an excellent explanation and something which we as a breed ( ouessants ) are going through at the moment.  can I ask if you have any thoughts  to the dilemma of preserving genotype when cross breeding is an on going problem?

I am very pro keeping the genotype and the natural diversity that exists within the breed however this is used by some to allow an anything goes kind of policy to make "improvements". Having a breed standard seems to be the only way to protect something of that genotype . do you happen to have any references to this debate I'm thinkng specifically with regards to genotype of primtives?

thanks
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 11:05:06 am by kanisha »
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Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: showing ???
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 12:29:13 pm »
Hi Kanisha
I only know about the Hebridean Sheep Society where we have kept the breed description and not gone down the standard way.  As far as I know we have not had a problem recently with breeders bringing in outside blood.  I think it did happen in the early days, some by accident and some deliberate, hence the need to watch the phenotype carefully for signs the genotype is changing.  With the cost of getting genetic testing done getting less, perhaps that is the way to go.

The only way I can think of to control what is happening in the breed, while maintaining the natural historic diversity, would be to support breeders trials of various crosses by providing a second level register for them.  So they would no longer be pure bred Ouessants, but cross-breeds and their progeny could never come back into the pure bred register.  However, as one of the ultimate purposes of keeping the rare breeds is to use some of their specific genetic traits to 'improve' other breeds, this should really be an ongoing part of the breed society's remit.   The Heb Soc used to do a variety of cross-breeding experiments which have led to the use of certain terminal sires for meat production but not much else, but there was never any question of these crosses becoming part of the breed.   I suspect that a few breeders back in the bad old days did sneak the odd cross in as a pure bred animal, and this would show up once genetic testing does come in, but I think the only breed which is almost totally pure is the North Ronaldsay on its native island.

Sorry I don't have any of the references you are interested in.  The person to discuss this with is probably David Kinsman.  I will find his email address and send it to you by pm.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 12:31:51 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: showing ???
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 12:36:20 pm »
the same dilemma is in the pigs     it all comes down to the credibility of the breeder :farmer:

 

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