Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?  (Read 6389 times)

smudger

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • North Devon/ West Exmoor
Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« on: May 01, 2012, 11:09:45 pm »
After wasting too much time looking for an affordable trailer of any size, now thinking that a 7.5 tonne horse lorry would be more useful (and allow us to downgrade one of our cars from a 4x4). Any modifications required other than needing gates on ramp to use for livestock? Any big downsides?
Traditional and Rare breed livestock -  Golden Guernsey Goats, Blackmoor Flock Shetland and Lleyn Sheep, Pilgrim Geese and Norfolk Black Turkeys. Capallisky Irish Sport Horse Stud.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 11:19:12 pm »
tax
fuel consumption
needing plated
you have to apply for your premises to be used as an operating centre   and get an o licence  for your own use the hurdles/obstacles aren't to bad  but get caught hauling for somebody or running illegal there are massive fines
far easier with an ifor Williams and they are being looked at closer by vosa and plod as well now :farmer:

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 09:06:07 am »
Um yes to the plating rather than MOT but will they really need an operators licence as 7.5T and under is not classed as HGV. (obviously they would need to have passed driving test 1997 or before so as not to have to do a lorry test)?


robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 09:25:47 am »
well they could chance it then get screwed over by vosa and plod
i have a friend who was running without all the legality's changed his lorry and is now doing it the proper way :farmer:  and both are /were under 7.5 tons :farmer:

smudger

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • North Devon/ West Exmoor
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 10:04:15 am »
Robert: Re

Tax - that's why we bought a trailer originally, but reality is we run 2no. 4x4's so saving will part offset. Don't actually know what a lorry costs to tax. Good question will find out....

Licence. Yup old enough and held licence for 25 years so that's ok and why I'm sticking with 7.5 tonne limit.  Could go smaller to 3.5 tonne but if we can get 3 horses in then we can sell of IW trailer.

Fuel consumption. Pulling a horsebox, I see the needle drop left before my eyes. Luckily abattoir is only 6 miles away.  So its only if buying new stock which will be infrequently soon (ram every 2 years?). Weaners in back of pick-up.

Would be interested to know any VOSA rules just to make sure. We are registered as a Farm Business, but won't be operating a transport business ie other peoples livestock , is that not when VOSA kicks in?
Traditional and Rare breed livestock -  Golden Guernsey Goats, Blackmoor Flock Shetland and Lleyn Sheep, Pilgrim Geese and Norfolk Black Turkeys. Capallisky Irish Sport Horse Stud.

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 10:18:32 am »
well they could chance it then get screwed over by vosa and plod
i have a friend who was running without all the legality's changed his lorry and is now doing it the proper way :farmer:  and both are /were under 7.5 tons :farmer:

I suppose I was thinking of the usage being non business ie a few pigs for the table  rather than commercial undertaking. Not of trying to chance anything if the OP is a business.

I just know there are a lot more regs for HGVS than there are for 7,5Ts including licencing of the premises to keep them there, inspections every x weeks, tacho having to be working and used etc, so big difference from a 7.5T

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 10:28:07 am »
fuel consumption is the big one we normally get about 28 -26 mpg   with the dp7e we get about 22 and with thedp120g we get 16 mpg  one TD5 discovery was down to 12 mpg towing the DP120g
you can get over 7.5 ton Lorry's derated to comply with the weight restriction  if vosa are doing a roadside check horse Lorry's are there favourite     i did hear of one purge at a sunday hose event half the lorries were illegal either on weight or licence regulations :farmer:

smudger

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • North Devon/ West Exmoor
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 12:43:34 pm »
http://www.ohto.co.uk/A_Guide_for_Horsebox_and_Trailer_Owners.pdf

Quote from above : An operator’s licence is required by anyone who uses a vehicle of more than 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight (the maximum combined weight of vehicle and load) for carrying any kind of goods or livestock in connection with a business.

and:

Operator licensing is not intended
to cover most people whose
equestrian activities are no more than leisure pursuits


and:
Where the user of a vehicle combines the use of a horsebox for amateur purposes and a business (e.g. a farm, livery stables or any other related business), a goods vehicle operator’s licence will be required, irrespective of how frequently that vehicle may be used in connection with the business.

So 7.5 tonnes is ok for equestrian/ leisure but more than 3.5 tonnes for livestock as part of a business falls under VOSA.

So now if i don't buy a lorry : my horse trailer is just under 1 tonnes unladen and the document states:
Dual-purpose vehicle and trailer combinations
A dual purpose vehicle and any trailer drawn by it, is identified as being exempt from operator licensing under existing legislation. Therefore, where you use a
4x4 and trailer, an operator’s licence will not be required.


However there is a flowchart on pages 7 which seems to indicate that a restricted operators licence is be required?  Anyone comment?

Anyway all looks horribly complicated, restricted hours, rest periods etc. At most I think I will look for a 3.5 tonne limit, but not sure older versions will accommodate 2 full size horses.

Have to admit RW's negativity was not misplaced...
Traditional and Rare breed livestock -  Golden Guernsey Goats, Blackmoor Flock Shetland and Lleyn Sheep, Pilgrim Geese and Norfolk Black Turkeys. Capallisky Irish Sport Horse Stud.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 01:00:10 pm »
moving swiftly on   it may seam an awful expense but a tdv6 disco  or a rangerover sport both with air suspension  will be more than capable of towing 3.5 tons and beyond  a friend was telling me he  had nearly 4 tons of cattle in his trailer plus the weight of the trailer when going to market all the rough looking set ups with dodgy lights and cattle floats  were being pulled by the cops he was waved on through      if it looks alright you wont be stopped the air suspension jacks the back end up and makes it look alright  :farmer:
not that i advocate breaking the law but i wont be committing to writing all i have done wrong :farmer:

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 02:25:45 pm »
http://www.ohto.co.uk/A_Guide_for_Horsebox_and_Trailer_Owners.pdf

Quote from above : An operator’s licence is required by anyone who uses a vehicle of more than 3.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight (the maximum combined weight of vehicle and load) for carrying any kind of goods or livestock in connection with a business.

and:

Operator licensing is not intended
to cover most people whose
equestrian activities are no more than leisure pursuits


and:
Where the user of a vehicle combines the use of a horsebox for amateur purposes and a business (e.g. a farm, livery stables or any other related business), a goods vehicle operator’s licence will be required, irrespective of how frequently that vehicle may be used in connection with the business.

So 7.5 tonnes is ok for equestrian/ leisure but more than 3.5 tonnes for livestock as part of a business falls under VOSA.

So now if i don't buy a lorry : my horse trailer is just under 1 tonnes unladen and the document states:
Dual-purpose vehicle and trailer combinations
A dual purpose vehicle and any trailer drawn by it, is identified as being exempt from operator licensing under existing legislation. Therefore, where you use a
4x4 and trailer, an operator’s licence will not be required.


However there is a flowchart on pages 7 which seems to indicate that a restricted operators licence is be required?  Anyone comment?

Anyway all looks horribly complicated, restricted hours, rest periods etc. At most I think I will look for a 3.5 tonne limit, but not sure older versions will accommodate 2 full size horses.

Have to admit RW's negativity was not misplaced...

Its is contradictory isnt it. I think that they may be saying that because the vehicle towing is a 4x4 personal car as well as a horse/livestock puller, the restricted operators licence isnt required even though  if the towing vehicle was purely commercial it would be (eg if it were one of those giant tractors that can do 50mph). But it might be wise to check with VOSA cos it isnt at all clear!

It is unlikely that an older (therefore not made up of lightweight materials) 3.5tonner will be able to carry 2 horses of any size while remaining under the legal weight limits - they normally have a payload of 800-1200kg and that has to include all people, tack, equipment and water and fuel. if an average horse is 500kg then 2.....

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 04:18:50 pm »
that was another thing that plod were getting the horse people for OVERWEIGHT :farmer:

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 04:39:17 pm »
Agree, which is fair enough as it is a safety issue. . It isnt helped by vendors/firms selling horseboxes as 'carries 2 or 3 horses' even tho they must know perfectly well weight wise it may not be legal, some arent even legal to carry one big one because the living etc is so heavy and was put on after the plating was certified.

Thankfully people are getting a lot more switched on about what they can carry so ads are improving and some quote payload etc now.

We have just downsized to 3.5T from 7.5T but we are only ever going to carry one horse in it.

OhLaLa

  • Joined Sep 2010
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 02:04:23 pm »
We had a 7.5 ton lorry but got rid of it pretty quickly after the novelty wore off. Slow, cumbersome and thirsty. For the amount we used it, it didn't earn it's keep in road tax, let alone the insurance.

My preferred choice is a nice tidy horse trailer for the hosses, and a good stock trailer for everything else.

 :farmer:

smudger

  • Joined Jan 2012
  • North Devon/ West Exmoor
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 11:24:59 am »
Thanks all. Finally got my strategy sorted out: tiny unbraked trailer for picking up rams and taking a few to abattoir (only 6 miles away so can always do a few trips). Not too heavy to tow empty. Keep our lovely horse trailer, then look out for a cheap trailer for pony or a high cattle box as dual purpose. But don't need that for a few years till daughter is ready to hack out off lead rein. Does mean we need to keep two cars that can tow. :-\

I always used to look on jealously at those with horse box/lorries. Lets say the view (and noise) from the driving seat is not as rosy, haven done a test drive.
Traditional and Rare breed livestock -  Golden Guernsey Goats, Blackmoor Flock Shetland and Lleyn Sheep, Pilgrim Geese and Norfolk Black Turkeys. Capallisky Irish Sport Horse Stud.

Crofterloon

  • Joined Mar 2012
  • Mintlaw
Re: Using a horse lorry to go to abbatoir/market?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 07:29:26 am »
We have a local haulier who takes our sheep to the Mart, abbatoir or even will pick up sheep for me
from the ferry terminal in Aberdeen. If you look at what he charges my own lorry or a larger trailer
is not really an issue.

Just as a rough idea of cost to send sheep to the Mart is about £1 a head plus Vat.

So I have used the haulier to pick up 90 ewes at a park I rent and bring them home for lambing.

 

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