[Moleskins]

My Ryelands have in previous years been a bit too adept at losing their lambs, i.e. I arrive to check them and find a ewe bleating over a dead lamb.
This year I've been determined to make sure i didn't lose any so they've been watched tirelessly.
So far no lambs have been presented wrongly all appear with the nose about an inch back from the front feet, however, a ewe last year who'd seemingly been in labour for some time gave birth after I got hold of the front legs and gave the a pull to 'straighten them'. Once that was done out came the lamb.
This time, I'm finding I feel their struggling, so do the same pull on the front legs. Left one for an hour before I did this even though I was worried because she'd prolapsed earlier.
One set of twins were born without me being there. Lost one but that's another story.
So am I too quick to get involved ?

[jaykay]

I'd say that you didn't need to pull out lambs that are apparently being born normally, the 'struggle' is part of the process, the placenta detaches during it and so on.

That said, I definitely straighten out legs, get involved if it's taking ages, the lamb is mispresented etc.

[Fleecewife]

The time to offer a helping hand is when there has been no progress for a while.  I wouldn't say that pulling legs in a normally presented lamb is interfering too much - it's not in quite the same league as diving in up to your elbows    It may not be strictly necessary, but if you have been losing lambs then I can understand why you would be worried and want to get them out and safe.  Sometimes a perfectly normal birth can seem to take a long time - same in humans 

[Moleskins]

Yep, appreciate that the struggle is part of it, but after how long do you say ok I need to help.
As I say left one ewe for an hour and there was no progress, the 'nose and toes' were showing
but not getting any further out. Bit like the Hokey Cokey - in out in out. Or possibly now you
see me now you don't ?
This mornings one was nose and toes out, but didn't know how long for, so I helped.
Glad you said "same in humans" Fleecewife being a bloke I didn't want to make comparisons.

[jaykay]

I last about an hour (sometimes  ) before I want to intervene.

They say go and make a cuppa tea. I make mine, bring it back, drink it while watching.... often by then it's happening fine. But if not, I force myself to wait a bit.......but then I intervene.

My friend who lambs hundreds pulls out any lamb he sees on the way - he says he may not be around to see that ewe again inside 2 hours, so he makes sure the lamb is safely out.

[Tilly]

.....I think some breeds do need more attention than others, and with your past experiences with your ewes, I would be inclined to make sure if you see a ewe in the final stages of lambing, to gently help lambs out and make sure their airways are clear- often times a lamb will die if the mother does not bother to get up straight away after lambing to clean the film off the lambs head/body .
Good luck 
Tilly

[doganjo]

I'm not a sheep person but I have whelped numerous bitches. 

I NEVER leave my bitches straining more than half to three quarters of an hour before going over everything carefully in my mind.   

In ALL cases I would ask the question "will I do more harm than good by interfering"  If the answer is yes I leave well alone, if the answer is no, I help, if I am unsure I call the vet, or if it is clear the matter is urgent.

Hope that helps.  I can't see that you have done anything other than good so far, JK

[woollyval]

Just a thought.....pylands tend to be fatties....are they too fat and is that causing the problems? Just a thought!

[VSS]

Just a thought.....pylands tend to be fatties....are they too fat and is that causing the problems? Just a thought!

This is a very good point - ewes at lambing should be fit, not fat and remember that overfeeding can result in larger lambs, so harder births.

How long I would leave a ewe where the lamb is normally presented would depend to some extent on how old she is. A first time lamber will need much longer than an older ewe - she needs the time for everything to stretch and open up and if you intervene too soon, you risk damaging the ewe.
Generally outcomes are much better if the ewe is given the time to deliver the lamb herself. In an older ewe, an hour is not too long and I would be quite happy to leave a first time lamber twice this long (given that she is not exhausted or distressed.

I know when I was having my first child I was in second stage labour for 2.5 hours, and I was left to get on with it. So I am happy to leave the ewes to it, but you do have to exercise judgement.

[Moleskins]

Your right when you say Ryelands can be fatties hence one is nicknamed Mrs. Fat B*st*rd much to my OH's disgust.
I don't think these are overweight condition score is 2.5 to 3 I would say. The lambs are a good size but not over big.
I've tried to get the feeding better this year as in previous years I felt they were underfed and I got small lambs.
This one this morning is a bit skinny to be fair, the lamb that is, the ewe was a first timer. My next problem with her though is the lamb is suckling and she had milk this morning but I've just checked the ewe and there is only a couple of drops of milk not the normal jet. Lambs tummy seems to have some in it.  May have to put this onto a new thread.

[woollyval]

If your sheep are ok weight wise then maybe you are rushing in to quick! Also lambs should be on the skinny side when born...big lambs = difficult births in my opinion! I used to run a good flock of Dorset Downs and they tend to keep a lot of weight on and I found half a big mug of 18% ewe nuts per day plus superb hay and good grazing was all they needed to produce good lambs easily. I too would give them time and importantly privacy...sheep are a prey animal and even the friendly ones tend to want to lamb at a place of their choosing where they cannot be seen.
If your ewes are just bad mothers once the lamb is born thats another thing altogether. Good luck!

[SallyintNorth]

My rule of thumb is:

• an hour with no progress
• ewe has stopped trying
• anything other than two front feet and a nose, of course
• slow or no progress after twenty minutes on second and third lambs, especially if the first had to be assisted - on a busy farm we usually hoik the remaining ones out, but if you do have the time to let nature take its course, don't let it take too long in case the subsequent lambs were held up for a long time by the first

[Old Shep]

How long I would leave a ewe where the lamb is normally presented would depend to some extent on how old she is. A first time lamber will need much longer than an older ewe - she needs the time for everything to stretch and open up and if you intervene too soon, you risk damaging the ewe.

As a rule of thumb how long would you leave a first time lamber?

[jaykay]

I'd go with Sally's list, I think an hour is long enough if nothing is happening.

If feet and a nose seem to be making progress out then let it happen, first timers do take longer, for the reasons VSS gave. You can feel if the cervix hasn't dilated properly anyway, it's a tight band stopping the lamb coming out, don't pull a lamb out against that, give it more time.