[mab]

Hope this is the right place Dan - it didn't seem to quite fit in anywhere else, though I'm not sure it's exactly 'land' management.

The place I'm thinking of getting has a public footpath running across the land (beggars can't be choosers  ); If I understand correctly, the local authority has responsibility for the path/bridges, but the land owner has to maintain the stiles & fences - is this correct?

Does anyone have any experience of public ROW on their land - are they a major problem? or just a minor irritation?

the land is not very near a town/village so I don't think it's a rat-run for vast quantities of locals, but as this is west Wales there may be a fair amount of 'tourist' traffic - and as the path was a quagmire when I was there it probably has a significant number of dog walkers and the like.

Can anyone suggest a good (cheap) way of providing a stile that allows dogs through but not sheep? I ask this 'cos the existing stile I looked at didn't provide a dog access so folks had pushed the stock-fencing up to allow dogs (& therefore sheep) a way through.

mab

[lachlanandmarcus]

What about this?
http://www.jacksons-fencing.co.uk/fencing/footpath-r.o.w.-and-demarcation/stiles/footpath-r.o.w.-demarcation-stiles.aspx

[mab]

interesting idea, though I have a feeling that joe public won't want to fiddle with a dog door - even assuming it keeps working for very long.

I was thinking along the lines of something more low tech - like a narrow gap between 2 vertical posts? I've seen stiles like this but I'm not sure how narrow it would have to be to keep sheep in - or if the ones I saw were on cow pastures.

[YorkshireLass]

Remember dogs and sheep can be around the same size - and lambs will escape.

Depends how sensible the dog walkers are. Some take care; others don't clean up worm-infested poo, and we (my employers past and present) have trouble with walkers just cutting fences that inconvenience them 

Contact the local rights of way officer to advise on stile choices etc

ETA - if you ever need to use pesticides, there are different rules around what you can apply. Technically you'd need to use something approved for amenities (e.g. for parkland) along the footpath, despite being ok with agricultural pesticides over the rest of the field. I bet there are other technicalities too 

[clydesdaleclopper]

If I understand correctly, the local authority has responsibility for the path/bridges, but the land owner has to maintain the stiles & fences - is this correct?

Not necessarily - you are likely to be responsible for all of it and you have to remember that under the rules on occupier's liability you may be responsible for injury occurring to users of the path / stiles. I suggest that you get your solicitor to check this very carefully and explain the full ramifications.

[lachlanandmarcus]

interesting idea, though I have a feeling that joe public won't want to fiddle with a dog door - even assuming it keeps working for very long.

I was thinking along the lines of something more low tech - like a narrow gap between 2 vertical posts? I've seen stiles like this but I'm not sure how narrow it would have to be to keep sheep in - or if the ones I saw were on cow pastures.

if a dog can fit through a gap, so can a sheep...and podgy people might fail to get through :-)))

the dog door would at least mean that you had bent over backwards to facilitate legal use of the path, putting you in the right in any argument, and so any criminal damage to fences that happened when you have  provided a perfectly legal way for the dogs to pass would be looked at a lot more seriously if they continued to do it.

TBH if there are real probs with dog walkers, if it were me I would want the path fenced anyway for the sheeps  sake if that was doable. That has the advantage that they would be restricted into using the gate/dog door, not able to roam along and damage the fence.

anyway here is some tech info on dog gate design, you might want to DIY to make it more substantial and longer lasting so this might be useful, source is Herts CC Rights of Way guide

8.4.6 Dog gate specification

Where stiles are being constructed, consideration should be given to pedestrians with dogs. Where the rails are closely spaced and/or netting is used to ensure adequate stock proofing, this may necessitate the use of a dog gate. The following specification is recommended although alternative 'dog-flap' designs are available and may be considered as appropriate.
 
A gap should be made between two uprights of at least 0.3m wide and 0.45m high.
 
The door should not be capable of being lifted out of the structure and shall automatically close after use. There should be clearance between the door and the ground to prevent it rotting. The door shall have a bottom edge at least 50mm thick and 100mm wide and when closed a gap of no greater than 75mm shall exist between the door and the uprights. The door should not weigh more than 3.5kg.
 
The door should be fitted with a handle. Dowel, studding or metal pipe can be used as a handle and also to prevent its removal. The door should be operable from both sides of the stile, and must not obstruct the use of an adjacent stile.

[VSS]

We have a lot of trouble locally with dog walkers cutting the wire below stiles to let their dogs through. Then, of course, the sheep get out.

We are trying to encourage the use of kissing gates to solve this problem.

[doganjo]

I have seen something similar to the kissing gate idea - it was 6ft high (the area was deer fenced)but I'm sure the height isn't crucial/  It was two posts with a semi circular metal construction slung between them and you had to move it round, step into the area, then swing it round behind you so the gap was always closed.  The construction was big enough to take two of us and 3 dogs. - a bit like a shop rotunda.

[ellisr]

I have just spoke to our local council today about the gates they installed as they are being left open so that the livestock can get out. They have said they will get intouch and do a survey, lets see what happens as the farmer next door is starting to get very aggresive about the sheep going into his field.

[mab]

Gosh, I'm beginning to have doubts about buying a place with public ROW now,  but with a limited budget you have to make some compromises.

Remember dogs and sheep can be around the same size - and lambs will escape.

Well, I did think that my shetlands look a lot wider than most dogs, and I'm sure I've seen a sheep pasture with a narrow slot stile - the memory won't quite come - but there's no denying the lambs will go through, so it probably wasn't a sensible idea - unless I go for cows instead  , but it's steep land.

I've received a communication from the councils rights of way people that seems to confirm that I'd be responsible for the stiles 

I have just spoke to our local council today about the gates they installed as they are being left open so that the livestock can get out. They have said they will get intouch and do a survey, lets see what happens as the farmer next door is starting to get very aggresive about the sheep going into his field.

I'd have thought a farmer would be more sympathetic; surely he's in the same boat? Sounds like kissing gates might not be the answer though, unless they've got strong springs on them; maybe Doganjo's stiles are the best (and most expensive I expect).

This is the problem with buying in a place on the other side of the country - if it were nearer I could go and see what people do there on a nice weekend - oh well  .

[SallyintNorth]

I have used paths where there was a home-made dog gate next to the stile - two uprights about a foot apart, two or three cross rails both sides, a simple thick plank that's taller than the fence so you just grab the top of the plank and slide it up to let your dog through, then drop it.  Very easy to use, lamb proof, self-closing - and easy to maintain too.

There is no question that tourists can be a problem near livestock.  Most of the farmers I know who have footpaths that are infrequently used - not part of any particular trail or close to any other tourist attraction - do not feel that they have problems with walkers.  Those of us on very well-used paths feel differently...  But it's a double-edged sword, we have often had help from walkers - "Just stand in that entrance and wave your arms please!"; a cyclist who sped past an escaping ewe and turned her; and just yesterday a kind tourist who reported a newborn lamb crying alone at dusk.

On balance I would prefer not to have a public right of way but I wouldn't discount a property because of one.

[Jimbofish67]

Mab
don't let it put you off, we bought our place in South Wales with a public footpath cutting across the corner of our plot.
It uses a kissing gate as it enters our land and another as it leaves onto the mountain, this path is only 30 foot from the house so it could be quite intrusive, we asked locally on how much it was used and although it leads out of the village and forms part of a circuit used by walkers we have found we barely notice people going by.
I admit it does depend on what your use to, the kissing gates work well and we have not had any escapees going out or coming in from the mountain which is busy with common grazing rights.

[mab]

Mab
don't let it put you off, we bought our place in South Wales with a public footpath cutting across the corner of our plot.
It uses a kissing gate as it enters our land and another as it leaves onto the mountain, this path is only 30 foot from the house so it could be quite intrusive, we asked locally on how much it was used and although it leads out of the village and forms part of a circuit used by walkers we have found we barely notice people going by.
I admit it does depend on what your use to, the kissing gates work well and we have not had any escapees going out or coming in from the mountain which is busy with common grazing rights.

thanks JF, I know that most people who use ROW are OK, but I suppose I'm just dwelling on worst case scenarios.

As it happens one part of the ROW does go past the house for me too, but there's not much evidence of use along that bit - but as it's on the OS map I'm bound to get the odd fanatical rambler who'll use it cos it's on the map.

[mab]

There is no question that tourists can be a problem near livestock.  Most of the farmers I know who have footpaths that are infrequently used - not part of any particular trail or close to any other tourist attraction - do not feel that they have problems with walkers.  Those of us on very well-used paths feel differently...  But it's a double-edged sword, we have often had help from walkers - "Just stand in that entrance and wave your arms please!"; a cyclist who sped past an escaping ewe and turned her; and just yesterday a kind tourist who reported a newborn lamb crying alone at dusk.

On balance I would prefer not to have a public right of way but I wouldn't discount a property because of one.

Well 'my' footpaths don't appear to form an obvious route anywhere so I can hope  but if I go for a property without ROW I will have to settle for less in other ways, so I've sort of already decided to go with this property, but I'm just trying to explore the issue before we reach the exchange-contracts point and can't back out - mind you, at the rate the solicitors are going there's no rush    .

[Plantoid]

I'd see if you can get an uptodate ROW map off the ROW officer for your area.
OS maps might show or not show .. getting the definitive one from the ROW officer should be much more helpful as they are changed from time to time .