[Penninehillbilly]

Hi
Just wondering how others increase their goats feed in the last 8weeks of pregnancy.

both mine are just coming into the 8 week countdown, wondering how much to increase per week
they are currently getting (twice a day)
1 mug goat mix (just weighed some -6oz)
1 mug mixed flake
soaked sugar beet + some whole oats
chopped carrots
chopped bread ( few slices a day)
+ hay ad lib
they've been on caprivite and gradually getting moved to their new mineral mix

In books it tells you to feed to their expected output, but I don't know what that would be. Last year I just 'played it by eye' and we got away with it, left the kids on (2 each) so I don't know how much milk they were taking.
Too much =  big kids and problems, too little and ?.

I kept goats years ago, but even back then, I read all the books, but never 100% sure I was feeding just right (is there a just right?)

[wytsend]

Personally I would change the goat mix for either a calf mix or dairy nuts.....goat mix, as I have indicated before, is seriously short of essential elements for a lactating goat.... it is more suitable for  allroudf maintenance.

My girls get around 1.5kg daily, split into 2 feeds at milking time with their minerals added.  Used to feed closer to 2kg  but the new minerals have shown they don't need the quantity to maintain body condition and milk the same amount.

I would not increase the amounts you are feeding at present.....as long as they are keeping their condition, they are getting the right amount.   At about 4 weeks before, really assess them, because this is when the kids make their major growth.  This is the time to make sure the feed protein level is at least 16%...18% is better.... hence using cattle dairy nuts.

Don't worry if the girls don't clean up completely in the last week.....they simply may not have the room inside....every goat is different.  18% feed + minerals should ensure that goat equivalent of Twin Lamb Disease is not an issue... basically sheep get this problem because they are not getting a good enought diet in the last few weeks.

The mother will regulate the size of thekids to a certain extent....multiple births the kids will be smaller anyway.

[Penninehillbilly]

Thanks wytsend, I did try to get dairy mix / nuts when this was discussed before, but told not available, the big dairy farms got it in bulk and there was no demand for it otherwise. calf mix I'll look into.
Is the1.5kg just dairy nuts or including anything else as a mix? (sugar beet etc?)

[wytsend]

 Pretty much the dairy nuts....you can use beef store nuts as well.

Sounds to me as if somebody could not be bothered to get you dairy nuts...they are freely available in 25kg bags all over UK,  but sometimes have to be ordered specially.   BOCM certainly bag theirs.
Yes dairy farms do get bulk deliveries but dairy nuts are available for house cows for example.!!!

[jaykay]

My local feedstore, whilst not keeping dairy nuts, were happy to order me a 25kg bag of I'Ansons dairy nuts each week. It was no bother for them they said, they just added it onto the IAnsons order.

[Anke]

I would sound a note of caution - all goats are susceptible to pregnancy toxeamia, even ones in good body condition right up to kidding! Been there, done that and don't want to do it again, but no guarantees I think. I split their feed in the last 6 weeks into three meals, then go to 4 (late evening snack) for the last four weeks.

As by that stage they are not milking feeding to those requirements is a bit difficult, but the GGGS has produced a series of excellent leaflets, including one on feeding the in-kid goat.

Advice on there (and I do follow that):

Maintenance ration for a GG: 225 to 350g/day (for a dry doe), then 6 weeks to kidding start feeding individually
6weeks to go: increase to 2 x 225g/day
5weeks to go: increase to 2 x 350g/day
4weeks to go: increase to 2 x 450g/day
3weeks to go: increase to 2 x 675g/day
2weeks to go: increase to 2 x 750g/day
1 week to go: increase to 2 x 800g/day or maintain at 750g per portion.

My GG's weigh in at between 45 and 50kgs, so for larger goats increase acording to their weight. My BT's are between 70 to 80kgs, so get quite a bit more.

I actually start to weight the food by 4 weeks before, and definitely when I see them not finishing it. Also the advice is not to feed additional barley, as this is in most mixes and more may create toxins (I do not feed barley)

Also have a bottle of propylene glycol (1ltr bottles from the vets, and you can get it with at least two years of Use-by-date) and a drenching gun ready, if they start being too fussy and just don't look interested in their feed - drench. It doesn't do any harm, and often they do get their appetite back. The stuff used for ewes is ok too, but not really liked by goats. Same for Calciject - if they seem stiff and don't get up, inject. Same as for ewes.

I make sure they do have other feed stuffs now as well (flaked maize, readi-grass, mine get oats, shreds anyway, I also have goat mix as well as dairy nuts), so you can deal with a doe that becomes fussy (just like humans!!!). lots of different fruits etc etc. My GG's prefer mixes to straight rations, but I think they are quite fussy and I let them get away with it...

[Lesley Silvester]

My supplier doesn't do dairy nuts but if I can quote some brands at them, I'm sure they'll get some in.  Can anyone suggest some please.

[Anke]

I use Carrs& Billingtons Dairy nuts, but most feed companies do some.

[jaykay]

Mine are I'Ansons.

There's some thinking about in-lamb sheep that by the time we're raising their amount of cake they can't really take it in cos of the lambs. And that therefore, rather than a rising amount of cake, we should feed them a high level from 6 weeks before and let them eat more when they can and get a bit fatter, to make up for the week before when they can't eat much.

What do folk think?

To be honest, mine have ad lib cake and hay, they don't seem to overdo it, i've never been as technical as measuring it.

[Penninehillbilly]

Finally managed to get some dairy nuts today - 18% protein, from a supplier some miles away (OH is on the road a lot, working in Rochdale today so could call in on way home).
Interestingly I could hear the chap saying 'be very careful feeding it to goats because it has copper in it'. ??. Compared to the goat mix I usually get, 60mg/KG, the dairy nuts have 55mg/kg. It does say on the label 'Do not Feed to other livestock' so I hope that doesn't include goats? for the time being I'm giving 1/2 n 1/2 anyway.

Thanks for the guide Anke, mine are about 60kg, so just a bit more. I seem to remember being about 2lb a day last year, I think I was told that would be about right for 1st kidders, so a bit low but mums and kids were OK. Interesting about the barley, OH got some goat mix as well today and main ingredients were micronised barley then rolled barley as the first listed, (smells good though, molasses obviously).
The goat mix is Badminton Country mix - I see it doesn't have copper in it, and suitable for cattle sheep and goats, I suppose it would have been asking too much for OH to mention that when he phoned me I presume it will be OK for last years kids?
Cattle Nuts are HST feeds, Crewe

[Anke]

As far as I know the copper sensitivity is a sheep problem, not goats. One of the issues of feeding sheep mixes/nuts to milking goats is that they do not get enough copper because of the low content.

If your goat mix contains barley that's fine, it is just a possible problem if you feed it in addition to the mix (for example I feed a mixture of goat mix, dairy nuts,plus oats, some flaked maize, veggies etc)

[Penninehillbilly]

As far as I know the copper sensitivity is a sheep problem, not goats. One of the issues of feeding sheep mixes/nuts to milking goats is that they do not get enough copper because of the low content.

Thats why I was surprised to hear the chap saying goats shouldn't have the dairy nuts because of the copper, and on reading the ingredients the 'goat mix' doesn't have copper?

If your goat mix contains barley that's fine, it is just a possible problem if you feed it in addition to the mix (for example I feed a mixture of goat mix, dairy nuts,plus oats, some flaked maize, veggies etc)

They do get a mixed flake which looks to have barley in, lost the label, but I'll cut the mix out as time goes on.

I thought the books said start increasing feed at 8 weeks but I'm happy if I can leave it till later, I dread them having big kids and losing them (losing the mums, I think I could cope with losing the baby if mum was OK).

BTW. I read the books, but tend to get mixed up (I read too much and worry), what exactly causes pregnancy toxeamia, and how do I prevent it? (Now I'll have to go and get my books out and read all the problems again), that sets me off seeing all sorts of things to worry about )

[jaykay]

One of the problems of feeding goats sheep mix is lack of copper. Sounds like the feed merchant has got mixed up, I guess they don't come across a lot of goats.

Pregnancy toxaemia (sometimes called twin lamb disease) happens when the needs of the growing kids can't be met from the doe's food and therefore have to be supplied from her fat reserves. A bit of this is fine but too much and the doe 'goes into ketosis', ie In breaking down enough fat to supply the kids, she produces ketones, which are an appetite suppressant....and of she goes in a downward spiral.

Thin does carrying twins are at risk. Oddly, very fat ones are said to be as fat+kids leaves little room for eating!

I lost a doe to it a week after kidding, so milk supply and loss of appetite for whatever reason seems to be possible too.

Worrying won't change anything (she says, who should take her own advice!). Feed them well, have lots of titbits and variety of food available. I have a fussy eater and it seems ringing the changes helps. She wasn't having anything to do with molassed sheep mix a fortnight ago and preferred alfalfa pellets and flaked maize. Now the sheep mix is the favourite and she won't touch alfalfa......  ReadiGrass is going down well too.

[Anke]

Yes I worry to much about the goats too (oddly enough I am not really worried about the sheep...?), and re-read all my goat books at this time of year....

But my 2nd kidder GG girl has just over 5 weeks to go and is already ridged up , udder getting a bit rounder - so now I worry about triplets... so far she is eating like a horse , but I know it can change really quickly. One thing I was watching out this year was to not have her getting too fat before getting into kid - as she was milked it was a lot easier than with a dry goatling.

[Penninehillbilly]

HI
I 'googled' last night and meant to come back ad mention that, the site explained it much better than my books, whch I've been re-reading this morning, seems to make sense now, exercise plays its part as well, so I'll have to make sure they keep getting their 'playtime'. I find David Mckenzie's 'Goat Husbandry' hard going at times, the info is there, sorting it out from everything else sometimes confuses me. Also got Peter Dunn's Vet. book, (where it says increase feed at 8wks, another books says 50 days) a couple of 'lightweight' books and a couple of american books, one of which says copper is poisonous for goats? not surprised I get confused.
So it appears Pregnancy toxemia is before kidding, ketosis is after kidding, but similar symptoms, ketosis is supposed to be easier to treat.
jaykay- presume its Rowan you're referring to, glad she's feeling better, there was an article (as a monthly diary entry) in the BGS journal I was going to mention, sounded very similar to Rowan, are you in or do you know anyone in the BGS?
Anke what do you mean 'ridged up' - her tail ligaments loosening?
Also been reading that they utilise feed better over smaller more frequent feeding (not just when in kid) so I might start doing 3 meals a day anyway, makes more sense really, than to have a tumfull of food just twice a day, I fill their hay up anyway so I might as well give them part of their ration mid-day.