Author Topic: scottish independence.  (Read 31568 times)

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 09:49:33 pm »

Plantoid

  • Joined May 2011
  • Yorkshireman on a hill in wet South Wales
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 10:49:41 pm »
I can run with the nationalistic pride thing that's a given.

I have a lot of Scottisn  commercial fishers and recreational boat and shore fishing friends for fish for the pot or  hook and drop them .

 For th last six years we have bandied the idea of devolution ,  what itss costs were and will be in the long run .
 this independene thing has any of your scottish politicians  laid out for any or all of you waht the plans are should you vote for  independence and the likely costs of it to the Scottish people  .

when I was watching the Holyrood session today I got the impression that the SNP's  were not willing to  set out their stall but only wanted test the water with the vote  if it wa a yes then the'y come up with some thing but they didn't say what it woukd do if it came up a restounding NO .
 The  parties other than the SNP  seamed to be trying to get a fix on that but all mr Salmond did was  infer that they wer in cahoots with a mythical monster called Westminster.

Which to me means he totally neglected to take on board that they were also Scottish and representing their Scotish people.   That 's a bit dangerous and condesending it might just come back and bite him in his bum with a vengence .

Some of the  more credible Scottish thinkers on the sea fishing site ie . Barristers. Fishing vessel owners ,businessmen ,Scottish government officials  & a couple of journalists  think it would be very bad for the country to be fully independent .
 They say go for the max  devolution option and build the long term prospects over the next 20 or so years then see if it is going to pan out.

 They all  caution  " Be very careful what you wish for , you might just get it ".
International playboy & liar .
Man of the world not a country

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 11:16:54 pm »
the nearest i have come to Mr salmond was his Grannie cutting my hair when i was a child
the snp had a better man fronting it when it was billy Wolfe sadly he is no longer here to guide his party
cost well the Scottish parliament building just developed arms and legs when it was being made a cash cow for all concerned
goggle the west lothian question  that was asked by tam dayell  he was Tory tam the labour man
no point in asking us Scots what is going to happen when the nuts in charge of the asylum don't know :farmer:

Sandy

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2012, 09:36:19 am »
Plantoid, that's certainly a bit clearer, thanks, I keep reading one article saying good things then another saying bad, all I need is a clear mind to see what they are on about. I can see that policies passed in Westminster have no barring on the requirements of Scotland.

 In my non political mind any change will create waves that will shake the economy, I am not sure if I heard correctly about foreign investment, companies wanting to move over to Scotland but may not if In Scotland gains independance, although there may also be more benefits, the health system may attract people comming for treatement, also Education and the benifit system, its  the insecurity is the thing and I wonder if companies will take a chance.

Plantoid

  • Joined May 2011
  • Yorkshireman on a hill in wet South Wales
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2012, 10:36:25 am »
I take the times onmy kindle book ( 32 p per day )
yesterdays articles kind of show some of the likely problems and areas that will end up being " compromised " in both of its meanings .
 The oil revenues are aparently only ( Hope I get this right )  £ 10.4 billion UK GDP is 142 trillion  losing the oil is no big hardship but what  will cause dificulties is an independaent scotland  having British military and defence situated there.

The reason that the likes of the RAF , navel bases & barracks have been kept there was to give income to the country .. that may have to change.
Woukld the newly independent scotland  create their own currency , go Euro or want to keep it British.
apparently some of the financiers and bean crunchers reckon an Independent Scotland would have an international credit rating  similar to that of Greece and face the same problems of no body wanting to lend or work with them .

 This could have a massive knock on effect of international companies  moving out of Scotland to protect their business.

 Taxation also rears its ugly head & is not as easy as it first looks.
No one has done the number crunching  ( don't let Gordon Brown EX UK PM anywhere near the counting table  ;D )  yet. But as the SNP appear to want to raise their own taxes  they will have to be exceedingly carefull as to what & how theydo it .

4 milliion Scots  of which I would say nearly 35% are non earners will have to dig very deep into their pockets to fund everything . If the tax rate and business taxes are too high  businesses that can will head South and if it's too little  you will get some incommers if your lucky .

GB might then say well we will / can reduce the  levels of tax because we are not suporting Scotland and end up making it a journey south again because businesses are in it for making money not  coughing up to support political ideas.

from what I can gather from my Scottish pals and the papers & TV news is that the idea of independence is all nice and fluffy giving all Scots a nice warm glow  but the harsh realities of cost have not been considered by many in the SNP and that these need looking at in an intense spot light long before any referendums are held .

 I also get the impression that some of the more questioning Scots have seen through the smoke & mirrors of the 30 %5 vote for SNP that Salmond keeps pushing ...  It being that many people voted for SNP because the alternatives were not to their liking .& it was much more of a protest vote spit in the eye to Westminister than many care to admit  .
, Salmond appears to have taken this 30%  as Gospel and thinks he has a mandate in his own right. Come an election /referendum he might well end up as Billy No Mates in the results when  people find out  that the woolley hat job that was pulled over ther eyes is going to cost them dearly for manymany years to come.

 Ths Scottish fishing fleet is already having a big probs with the EEC over  byecatch and mesh sizes as welmas other countries fishing in the area  around 15,000 jobs depend up on this industry in Scotland alone .

Going independent will either mean having nothing to do with EEC or being their slaves & following their nonsensicsal edicts blindly or having to pay massive daily fines..

Some of my pals who experienced the " Icelandic Cod Wars " have also given this type of view .wrt independence :-
If your going independent you'll need a lot of fishery enforcement vessels and manpower 24/7 which is very very expensive , as you don't have a navy or airforce etc.that you can divert to the task. 


I think the Scots people need , indeed deserve a much clearer song sheet long before they sing the SNP's tune or else you'll end up in the crap like the UK is now when Ted Heath took us into the EEC in 1975 &.no one had thought through the  machinations of the others .

International playboy & liar .
Man of the world not a country

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2012, 11:26:53 am »
the alternative vote     is a factor that few have considered before    take west lothian as a prime example   a staunch labour area in the past    they could have fielded a monkey and won there seat        robin cook was the last labour mp in this constituency    conservative always lost there deposit   so no point in voting for them  it would have been a lost vote      no point in voting labour they only wanted to feather there own nest  liberal yet another lost cause     so that leaves snp    which did storm ahead because of all the above mentioned points


the cod wars of the 60s every night it dragged out on the TV   there must have been a lot of bad news to bury back then  with the Americans in Vietnam  spy's getting it off at the tax payers ex pence    poulson rubbing shoulders with Harold Wilson etc etc :farmer:

sabrina

  • Joined Nov 2008
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2012, 11:51:53 am »
I am very proud to be Scottish but trust any MP to tell me the truth that I would be very wary about.

Sandy

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2012, 11:57:11 am »
I just hope that the Scottish people in Scotland do not become  even more anti English......makes me paranoid when you get " Are you English?" ::)

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2012, 06:15:03 pm »
I just hope that the Scottish people in Scotland do not become  even more anti English......makes me paranoid when you get " Are you English?" ::)

I'm glad you recognise your paranoia.

I've not found Scottish people to be anti-English. Dan's English, so's the rest of his family - they haven't experienced any anti-English comments or treatment in the 20 odd years they've been here.

My chum along the road is from Hexham - when I first met her, I asked where she was from. Doesn't make me anti-English.

As I've said before, Scottish independence isn't anti-English or anti- anything. Why must it be a negative thing? can't it just be pro-Scottish?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 07:03:43 pm by Rosemary »

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2012, 06:45:58 pm »
i dont think it is, but if its anything like wales....
all power to the strong arm of the scottish in my opinion, there is also a rising movement towards a cornish parliament and legally the cornish stannary parlaiment is still legitamate so it will be interesting to see if anything comes of that also.

Rosemary

  • Joined Oct 2007
  • Barry, Angus, Scotland
    • The Accidental Smallholder
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 07:02:25 pm »
I take the times onmy kindle book ( 32 p per day )
yesterdays articles kind of show some of the likely problems and areas that will end up being " compromised " in both of its meanings .
 The oil revenues are aparently only ( Hope I get this right )  £ 10.4 billion UK GDP is 142 trillion  losing the oil is no big hardship but what  will cause dificulties is an independaent scotland  having British military and defence situated there.

The reason that the likes of the RAF , navel bases & barracks have been kept there was to give income to the country .. that may have to change.
Woukld the newly independent scotland  create their own currency , go Euro or want to keep it British.
apparently some of the financiers and bean crunchers reckon an Independent Scotland would have an international credit rating  similar to that of Greece and face the same problems of no body wanting to lend or work with them .

 This could have a massive knock on effect of international companies  moving out of Scotland to protect their business.

 Taxation also rears its ugly head & is not as easy as it first looks.
No one has done the number crunching  ( don't let Gordon Brown EX UK PM anywhere near the counting table  ;D )  yet. But as the SNP appear to want to raise their own taxes  they will have to be exceedingly carefull as to what & how theydo it .

4 milliion Scots  of which I would say nearly 35% are non earners will have to dig very deep into their pockets to fund everything . If the tax rate and business taxes are too high  businesses that can will head South and if it's too little  you will get some incommers if your lucky .

GB might then say well we will / can reduce the  levels of tax because we are not suporting Scotland and end up making it a journey south again because businesses are in it for making money not  coughing up to support political ideas.

from what I can gather from my Scottish pals and the papers & TV news is that the idea of independence is all nice and fluffy giving all Scots a nice warm glow  but the harsh realities of cost have not been considered by many in the SNP and that these need looking at in an intense spot light long before any referendums are held .

 I also get the impression that some of the more questioning Scots have seen through the smoke & mirrors of the 30 %5 vote for SNP that Salmond keeps pushing ...  It being that many people voted for SNP because the alternatives were not to their liking .& it was much more of a protest vote spit in the eye to Westminister than many care to admit  .
, Salmond appears to have taken this 30%  as Gospel and thinks he has a mandate in his own right. Come an election /referendum he might well end up as Billy No Mates in the results when  people find out  that the woolley hat job that was pulled over ther eyes is going to cost them dearly for manymany years to come.

 Ths Scottish fishing fleet is already having a big probs with the EEC over  byecatch and mesh sizes as welmas other countries fishing in the area  around 15,000 jobs depend up on this industry in Scotland alone .

Going independent will either mean having nothing to do with EEC or being their slaves & following their nonsensicsal edicts blindly or having to pay massive daily fines..

Some of my pals who experienced the " Icelandic Cod Wars " have also given this type of view .wrt independence :-
If your going independent you'll need a lot of fishery enforcement vessels and manpower 24/7 which is very very expensive , as you don't have a navy or airforce etc.that you can divert to the task. 


I think the Scots people need , indeed deserve a much clearer song sheet long before they sing the SNP's tune or else you'll end up in the crap like the UK is now when Ted Heath took us into the EEC in 1975 &.no one had thought through the  machinations of the others .

Beware the writings of the Tory English press - they are no more unbiased than any political party.

There is a British military presence in Scotland because these are the best places, strategically, to site them. We are also lumbered with the nuclear presence at Faslane, which most Scots would prefer not to have. Since the USA has maintained bases in other countries including the UK, and Britain has bases in other countries, I see no practical reason why these bases cannot continue to remain in Scotland.

Scottish banks already print their own currency - I'm sure we'd manage. Some financiers may well say negative things - others will say positive things. Do we rest on the views of financiers, given their track record?

On the otherhand, an independent Scotland may take steps to encourage business in. Why would businesses necessarily find Scotland unattractive as a location and jump ship? This is just scaremongering.

On tax, just more scaremongering based on nothing. Currently, Scotland is a net contributer to the Exchequer.

Alex Salmond has always clearly acknowledged that the SNP majority at Holyrood (remarkable in itself as the Labour administration that set set it up did so in such a way that a Nationalist majority was felt to be well nigh impossible) is not a "yes" to independence - the SNP is not taking that for granted. The rest of the paragraph on this is frankly insulting.

Despite having a major fleet of more importance to us than the English fleet is to England, Scotland has been denied a place at the EU negotiating table by Westminster. I have posted before about Westminster's theft of 6000 square miles of Scottish waters - the boundary now lies off Carnoustie, I believe.

Re the EU, I personally don't like it but patently lots of other countries do since the number of members has steadily grown. In or out, I can't see that we'll be any worse off than we are as part of the UK.

I agree that there needs to be more information - it's unlikley to be unbiased, since there will be very few people without a view on the matter. It will be for voters to make a judgement call. The need for certain matters to be clarified and for the voters to have more information is exactly why the SNP have decided to delay the referendum - so that we can make the best informed decision possible.

Sandy

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 07:03:27 pm »
Most people I meet are lovely BUT.....there has been times...eg, when a snowball hit me and a man walked by saying "oh they are English" NOT nice and loads more, eg, going to a big company for an interview..I worked for the same company and wanted to re locate...the staff were there to answer questions, I asked and a high up worker turned his back on me and said " I don't do English" just because it don't happen to you is no indication it is not happening, ask other people!!!!!!!! I worked and went to uni to study Youth and community and a major part of that course was anti oppressive practice.....I know how it affects peoples confidence......Judge when you live in peoples shoes not by your own. I used to see first hand racisum in Leicester and I hated it,  I am in NO way anti Scotland going independant at all....just being practical!!

It is NOT about people asking where you from, some are missing the point here...remember I am used to working with people from different cultures...Do not shoot me down for my experiance. I only want to  Know the pros and cons as in some peoples eyes I am uneducated!!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 07:12:58 pm by Sandy »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2012, 07:04:21 pm »
Before I started seeing him, my late husband (from the West Country - so a  strong accent, my bird  ;)) used to say that he was victimised because he was English.  I asked him why he thought that a couple of months later when our relationship had become established - it was because almost everyone asked him 'was he English' purely because they didn't recognise his accent.  When I explained that they were just curious he stopped saying it and became fast friends with my two grown up SCOTTISH children, my SCOTTISH Mum, my SCOTTISH Aunts, Uncles and Cousins.  He was such a lovely man that they adopted him.  That is what we do in Scotland, we 'adopt' nice people and they become Scots like us  ;D  When he died there were 350 people at his funeral - and I would guess perhaps less than a dozen were ENGLISH!  There were a scattering of other nationalities too. ;D
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2012, 07:23:25 pm »
Quote
George Osborne refused to rule out Scotland being barred from retaining the pound if it split from the rest of the UK after the autumn 2014 referendum

Another threat?

And another one?
Quote
The Chancellor told ITV News that Scotland would also have to take on its share, estimated at £100 billion, of the national debt and questioned its ability to pay towards the UK's £187bn current exposure to the bailed-out Royal Bank of Scotland after its near-collapse in 2008. The First Minister had earlier said that he would not be prepared to share the UK's exposure to its toxic assets.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 07:26:02 pm by doganjo »
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

deepinthewoods

  • Guest
Re: scottish independence.
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2012, 07:28:57 pm »
surely if there was no form of emnity between the 'english' and the 'scots' there'd be no call for independence?

 

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