[melholly]

Morning all,

As a novice I just have probably a basic question to ask please? I have x2 Polled Dorsets who hopefully will have lambs late April (haven't got a scanner or anything like that so am assuming it's a case of fingers crossed Denzil the ram did his work?!) Anyway, the 2 Mums are in their own field at the mo. I have 5 others who are last years lambs and therefore didn't go to the ram this year separately. I have 3 x breed orphans and x2 PD's (the offspring of my Mums last year)

My question is this - can I put them all back together in one field a) pregnant and b) when they lamb? I am hoping (weather pending) to leave everything as natural as possible as have been told the PD's make good Mums and usually lamb ok.

Thanks all
Mx

[Padge]

Ive done exactly what you have suggested.
All the pregnant mums and last years offspring are now together and will remain so right through lambing. The only  problem i have encountered is that when feeding the pregnant Ewes i have to seperate the none pregnant.

[Fleecewife]

We don't scan either.  At the moment all our female sheep are running together - in-lamb ewes, one ewe hogg and several retired biddies.  They are free to roam between five pastures as they choose and they love it.  I was intending to separate out the in-lamb ewes at the end of Feb to feed up for lambing, but it really depends on the weather.  We have loads of grass still at the moment so if that continues then they won't need much more concentrated feed than they are all getting now (a handful each), plus ad lib hay, licky bucket etc which they all get.  We'll just play it by ear.  I like to have the hoggs in with their mums when they lamb as I think it definitely helps them for the following year when they lamb themselves so they are not shocked by what appears  .  Mostly first time lambers do fine but occasionally one is horrified and doesn't want to own up to that thing being anything to do with her - having been on hand to witness lambing in their own dams seems to avoid that.
However, we will watch carefully to make sure there is no bullying or excessive shoving of the in-lamb ewes by the others, as that could damage the lambs - in that case we would separate them straight away.

[Rosemary]

We run all our female sheep together apart from the 6 weeks of tupping. Seems to work pretty well.

[SteveHants]

I can't see why you wouldn't put them together.

We are lucky down here in that the winter has been so mild, mineral licks is all the sheep really need. I would definitley err away from supplimenting ewes that you hadn't had scanned - dont want to end up with massive singles.  I'm mildly concerned (minerals aside) about supplimenting primitive breeds anyway as I feel it allows poor doers to pass unnoticed, which really should be culled and ultimatley leads to the genetic detriment of the supposedly hardier breeds.

[Fleecewife]

That's an interesting point Steve, but surely it depends on where you farm.  Down in Hampshire, yes, supplementing primitives could, and does, lead to just the problems you state, as well as overly large animals.  On the other hand, if you live in harsh conditions then in an extra harsh year you could end up losing a lot of ewes.  Primitives are sheep too, and need proper feeding.  The disaster on Culloden a few years back proves that even primitives can't live on nothing.  It is unusual for us to have grass at this time of year - in many years we have hard frosts by October and no new growth until late April, which is a long time for in-lamb ewes to survive.  I think we would have Animal Health and the SSPCA on our backs if we didn't feed our sheep.
The point you make about not supplementing primitives to prevent large singles doesn't apply, as primitives have a larger pelvic opening compared to their overall size than other breeds, so birthing difficulties are very unusual.

[SteveHants]

They were two seperate points, maybe poorly expressed. Were I to have polled Dorsets that I hadn't had scanned and I lived in Sussex, I wouldn't be supplementing them with anything other than something that ensures they get the right minerals, because overfeeding the singles will lead to big, difficult to birth lambs.

Interesting point about where you farm, and I take the point that if you live above the snowline you may want to give them  concentrate blocks/silage or whatever you have available. I just get the impression at times that some people are chucking far too much feed at their sheep and it is leading to an overall decline in the 'quality' of sheep in the national flock, which in turn will increase farmers overheads.

This is a point of contention in the very commercial world too, with rams especially, giving high ebvs because they have been stuffed full of the best quality feed which doesn't necessarily translate to their progeny doing well off a grass-only diet which should be what one is aiming for when producing lamb.

[Fleecewife]

I do agree with you that many breeders are throwing too much feed at their sheep.  My pet hobbyhorse is the effect that stuffing animals for showing, then using them as the most desirable breeding stock, has on the breed as a whole.  Bring them up here, above the snow line as you say, and they shrivel up in no time.  So I suppose it's a happy medium we need to establish - here, we feed our primitives just a handful of concentrates a day, not the high protein stuff as they don't need it, just ordinary 'Tup&Lamb mix', plus everyday buckets and good quality hay.  When snow is deeper than they can scrape through we up the concentrates a bit to half a pound each just before lambing, however many they are carrying. That regime keeps them fit in our environment and seems to match what local farmers do.

[bazzais]

Should be fine

I had my lot scanned last week with brilliant results - I didnt put last years lambies into tupp and so introduced them back to the 'flock' after scanning the others.

I know they they say the separation is time for them to loose the connection with mam, but it was carnage, sheep baaing, mums finding lambs, lambs finding mums, getting kicked off, lots of sniffing, lots of noise  - then they all just moved to opposite sides of the fields eating grass. funny

Baz

[robert waddell]

our two Hampshire ewes both had a ewe lamb each   they were separated when the ewes went to the tup  and teamed back up when returned  the ewes have now lambed and do split into family groups  a little head movement but nothing to be worried about     they were all brought in at the end of Nov (to bloody wet to keep them out plus there feet went bad)   it is only this week that we let them out to the grass they are getting hay vegetables and brewers mash   with a little ewe and lamb mix     last years lambs could be up the stick as boris was running with them  first week in march will tell

[SallyintNorth]

I understand your point about not feeding if not scanned, SteveHants - but there is a proviso.  A ewe carrying twins may well need extra sugars and if she doesn't get them, she could suffer malnourishment of herself and the lambs, may not be able to provide the milk the lambs need, etc. 

In the primitives on the hill, they would rarely succeed in bringing twin foetuses to the point of parturition, which would take care of this aspect.  I'm not sure I would advocate allowing early abortion of second foetuses in lowland situations...  Although, having said which, it is our farming practice to do the opposite of flushing the ewes, specifically to encourage most ewes to have one good single lamb and make a good job of rearing it.  But we do then try to take very good care of them in the final 8 weeks!

So, if you are not scanning, I would, for the last 6-8 weeks, provide the minerals in a sugary lick, so that at least the twin mums can get the sugars they need.  I would also watch the ewes' condition like a hawk, and immediately seperate and feed anyone losing condition from about 8 weeks to go onwards, as it almost certainly would mean she's carrying twins.  (Assuming they are correctly dosed for fluke, worms, etc, that is.)  Similarly, anyone getting fat in the final 6 weeks with only grass and a sugary lick to go at probably needs to be eating less, so you could move her/them to leaner pickings.

I realise that with 2 in-lamb ewes you probably won't seperate the thin one - but hopefully you get what I mean. 

[SteveHants]

I understand your point about not feeding if not scanned, SteveHants - but there is a proviso.  A ewe carrying twins may well need extra sugars and if she doesn't get them, she could suffer malnourishment of herself and the lambs, may not be able to provide the milk the lambs need, etc. 

True, but if the conditions in Sussex are anything like they have been over in Hampshire (and I'm assuming they have, being next to each other and all) The grass was still growing till pretty late in the year and if it continues to be this mild, will start growing again pretty damn soon - so I'd just make sure these ewes had plenty of grass in front of them (plus minerals, obviously).

[SallyintNorth]

I understand your point about not feeding if not scanned, SteveHants - but there is a proviso.  A ewe carrying twins may well need extra sugars and if she doesn't get them, she could suffer malnourishment of herself and the lambs, may not be able to provide the milk the lambs need, etc. 

True, but if the conditions in Sussex are anything like they have been over in Hampshire (and I'm assuming they have, being next to each other and all) The grass was still growing till pretty late in the year and if it continues to be this mild, will start growing again pretty damn soon - so I'd just make sure these ewes had plenty of grass in front of them (plus minerals, obviously).

I am, of course, very envious of your southern grass!  (But not of your southern droughts ... even though at times it feels like the rain here will never end and the ground never dry out...)

However, back on topic, even if a ewe has plenty of grass in front of her (and you are lucky enough to have sugars in that grass even this early in the season), as her belly fills up with growing twins she may not have the room to be able to eat sufficient grass (or hay, or silage) to take on board the amount of sugar she needs.  Or maybe that's a northern thing too - perhaps our grass just isn't nutritious enough this time of year?  I'd never thought of that before.