[welshlass181]

I have a question.  I've read somewhere that there is a limit that you can travel livestock without some licence that you can get from an agri college or someting.  Anyway, from what i read about it it only counts if you intend to gain finacially from the pigs ... so if they were going for pets or to be transported as rescues that will have no financial gain could they be transported over the 40 odd miles or whatever it is?  Or have i totally read it wrongly

[jaykay]

The transport regs apply to animals 'transported in connection economic activity'. Well, since I reckon anything to do with my animals is extremely uneconomic, the regs don't apply  We'll see if the inspector agrees on Wed 

[Fowgill Farm]

Welshlass
You seem to have a fixation with travel regs, why, do you look like a pikey outfit or do you get pulled up all the time for dodgy driving?
Generally as you say if the journey is not for economic gain you can transport what you want where you want over any distance, the other get out is to have one human passenger per animal passenger.(a loophole in the legislation) If you do get pulled up by the police they are looking for stolen stock and so long as you have movement paperwork to prove provenance & your vehicle is in order, they'll be fine with you (they don't even know about livestock transport licences they're too busy looking for rustlers and drunks at this time of year!!) If you get pulled by the ministry (ie taken to weigh/inspecton station) they will want to see you movement docs again, your driving licence and that your vehicle isn't overweight and is all in working order and its not on red diesel, again they aren't really up on WIT, so smile nicely and wish them merry xmas.
Do your move as above and you should have no probs, you're stressing looking for stuff thats not out there.
HTH
Mandy 
 

[welshlass181]

Never been pulled full stop tbh and yes i am probably being a bit stupid about this but at the end of the day i want to be able to know what i am doing and what is legal.  I use a CLH stock trailer that was pulled by my olv volvo but   will now be pulled by my jeep.  I am a bit paranoid about my licence as it cost me so much to get and i wanna keep it clean

I've never heard of this until i saw about a rescue goat a little while ago and somebody mentioned this milage limit thingy.

And i'm very new to all this and there is so much confilcting info online the best people to ask and get a straight answer is a group of people who live it everyday.

[JulieS]

Well worth getting your transport licence anyway.  It's really easy...... and then you don't have to worry about lengths of journeys, you'll know you're covered.

I was just wondering how long the journey is that you are planning?

[oaklandspigs]

OK quick basic primer in transport law.

In England & Wales you would come under one of the Welfare of Animals Transport Orders  (WATO) (parallel versions for England & Scotland and Northern Ireland - all 2006 and same for Wales in 2007)

This implements into UK law EU regulation 1/2005, a small regulation of 44 pages!

WATO covers everyone, but exempts some people from most of the regs. In essence whilst still responsible for the general welfare of your animals, you do not have to complete most of the paperwork.

General guidance on pigs is in the doc below

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb12544d-pigs-080711.pdf


First exception from the specific rules is if you are not moving animals in connection with an economic activity.  Defra have guidance on what they consider economic, and the fact that you are eating your produce seems sufficient to count as economic - see the following general guide, but lack of profit or financial gain don't count.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13550-wato-guidance.pdf

Second exemption is under article 1 - which covers farmers transporting their own animals in their own vehicles less than 50km.

Trips to vets are also excluded.

Defra also have an unofficial (non-EU approved) exemption called the single animal exemption that if the number of adults = number of animals being transported up to 4 adults/animals then you are also exempt. This exemption can be withdrawn if abused according to defra.  See 1.5/1.6/1.7/1.8 of the WATO guidance document above.

If you aren't in the above, then the rules apply, so we then get 3 types of journey

Under 65km - You must carry an "animal transporter certificate" ATC - the extact form isn't specified, but if you do eaml and answer all the q's, the print will have all the info (and more!) that is needed. The Scottish version also has a proforma that complies with the rules.  The existing paper AML also has Section B that is effectively an ATC.  You don't have to use any of these forms, but it helps if you do.

You trailer must also be legal (lots of technical bits)  including ramps angles - guidance on a legal trailer below

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/transport/documents/2e-vehicle_spec_other.pdf
and lots of various rules on not moving animals of different ages together, near birth etc.

Over 65km and under 8 hours - all the above, plus you must be certified, simple exam 27 multiple choice questions, species specific, so separate exams for pigs, sheep, cattle and poultry.

Over 65km and over 8 hours - you and vehicle must both be certified, and frankly don't go there - if you're planning on moving more than 4 of your own animals over 8 hours, get someone to do it for you, it'll be cheaper !

After that we get to regulations on trailers and what can to towed by what and who - will leave that to another post !

[jaykay]

That link is very helpful.

Section 1.15 states that hobby breeders not running a business are exempt.
It specifically states farm livestock and poultry as an example of a hobby and the criteria for assessing whether or not it's a business is: Income exceeds expenses, whether from subsidies or selling produce/animals.

[JulieS]

Income exceeds expenditure.....

I look forward to that happening one day 

[robert waddell]

everybody is looking for a get out clause          the only one you can get is the exemption with up to 4 animals accompanied with 4 passengers

[jaykay]

and it not being a business

[princesspiggy]

we got pulled by the police once when we had a big ram lamb in the back of car. it was dark but he kept tapping at window with his horns. they never said a word about it, maybe they thot it was a dog!
i did have licenses etc but never had to show them.

[oaklandspigs]

That link is very helpful.

Section 1.15 states that hobby breeders not running a business are exempt.
It specifically states farm livestock and poultry as an example of a hobby and the criteria for assessing whether or not it's a business is: Income exceeds expenses, whether from subsidies or selling produce/animals.

Jaykay - is not well phrased but "(in relation to livestock) whether subsidy payments are claimed or for the selling of offspring, meat and meat products, wool, eggs, cheese, milk etc (this is an illustrative list only);" I read as you're not hobby if you're selling stock or meat

However this is just Defra's (not the court's) view - and you must make your own judgement.

[Sylvia]

we got pulled by the police once when we had a big ram lamb in the back of car. it was dark but he kept tapping at window with his horns. they never said a word about it, maybe they thot it was a dog!
i did have licenses etc but never had to show them.

They'd probably already bought that fact up on their amazing computery thing that tells them everything about you, whether you have insurance, a valid tax disc etc.

[Fowgill Farm]

Like i already said the police can't be arsed with livestock regs they're looking for anything stolen, unroadworthy, not taxed, tested or insured.
mandy 

[Berkshire Boy]

The way I see it is that this is another stealth tax and it's one I'm not going to pay. As Mandy says the police have better things to do than check up on petty bureaucracy.
I have better things to do with my money than give even more of it to the powers that be.