[northfifeduckling]

  just heard it in the news - the short-notice cut has been illegal, thanks Friends of the Earth 

[SallyintNorth]

Hold the celebrations a mo.

The bringing forward of the already planned cut has been ruled illegal, yes.  But now there isn't time for anyone (or at least not very many people) to get a scheme designed and priced, installed and the grant claimed before the old deadline - which I think was the end of March 2012?  Maybe some who were on the point of starting, or already in mid-install, can recover, but others - likes us - had had plans to do one by the end of March but can't now, having abandoned the idea, achieve that date.

I can be a bit of a cynic, but it does occur to me that they could have realised that the worst that could happen, if they illegally brought forward the cut-off, was that they would have to reinstate the original date - and they would still have significantly reduced the number of schemes they would have to support.

[northfifeduckling]

I know, it's mainly a matter of principle. Don't we have grants here in Scotland on a first come first served basis - when they're gone they're gone? But this one was dated - tough. At least the people who had signed up and bought just before the bad news came can now feel better .

[chrismahon]

Can't understand why everyone is so surprised, the Germans scrapped their 25 year deal 5 years into it, last year. All the venture capitalists have taken the cash meant for householders because the deal wasn't written properly -too busy trying to meet renewable targets that they will miss by a whopping 80% I am told.

Botton line is PV panels consume more energy in their production and installation than they will yield in their lifetime. So I can't understand why 'Friends of the Earth' are supporting this programme, I thought it was nothing more than a cash making carrot to fudge the Country's renewables equation ?

[SallyintNorth]

Can't understand why everyone is so surprised, the Germans scrapped their 25 year deal 5 years into it, last year. All the venture capitalists have taken the cash meant for householders because the deal wasn't written properly -too busy trying to meet renewable targets that they will miss by a whopping 80% I am told.

Botton line is PV panels consume more energy in their production and installation than they will yield in their lifetime. So I can't understand why 'Friends of the Earth' are supporting this programme, I thought it was nothing more than a cash making carrot to fudge the Country's renewables equation ?

I don't disagree with anything you say - but as to why the Green Party would support the scheme, I think as much or more good is done by the awareness of the issues, of the availability of renewable, harnessable energy, and of the consumption of energy within the home, as it is by the reduction in need for fossil fuels.  No education and awareness scheme the government - or anyone else - could have come up with could have achieved so much across such a wide cross-section of the public in such a short space of time.  Money bloomin' well spent, say I.

[chrismahon]

Yes I agree with you Sally, it has done a tremendous amount to raise awareness. I suppose the reason I am miffed about the whole renewables thing is I tried to get a very small and fully sustainable house with a very expensive and efficient wind turbine erected and in the initial discussions the Council poo-poo'd the whole idea, refusing to support it despite the fact that the turbine would produce more energy than it consumed in manufacture, albeit 10 years to break even with a life of 20 years and would be a net exporter. The reality is the Planning departments need overhauling, because to build level 3 and above Code for Sustainability housing (2013 compulsory) you need a lot of space to get uninterrupted light to the solar collectors in Winter and for ground source heat pumps. Sufficient space is only available on current 'Green Belt' land which our Council will not allow any building on at the moment.

[Yeoman]

A friend of mine works in the solar industry.  He told me that while the cut in 'per unit' income is unfortunate the longer term effect of this will be that the up front cost of a solar project will fall so that the effect of the lower income will be offset. 

Apparently there is plenty of profit for the installers at the moment.  In addition it is generally accepted that the cost of maufacturing the panels is falling so this will also help.

So while I agree that the cut in the per unit rate is disappointing these projects still remain good value.

[northfifeduckling]

to be honest, our experience with wind has not been the best, as our neighbours have been granted planning for a few turbines without any problems - so far only the first is up and running - but I have to suffer the noise and they are a bloody eyesore. Never mind that, it has to be done. I happily accepted the carrot offered by the government for the solar panels - time they did something, being behind the rest of Europe 10 years plus....And any plans that go wrong can be rubbished later on - learning by doing, isn't that it ?? 

[Dan]

Botton line is PV panels consume more energy in their production and installation than they will yield in their lifetime.

That's a myth as far as domestic PV panels are concerned, dispelled long ago. Well respected research* has shown that:

Energy payback estimates for rooftop PV systems are 4, 3, 2, and 1 years: 4 years for systems using current multicrystalline-silicon PV modules, 3 years for current thin-film modules, 2 years for anticipated multicrystalline modules, and 1 year for anticipated thin-film modules.

Since the lifetime of even the poorest panels is over 10 years, and most panels will continue to function at 70% capacity for over 20 years, solar returns many times the input energy (comparable with other sources according to the research).

* US Dept of Energy research
* Energy & Environmental Economics

[chrismahon]

Thanks Dan. I appear to have been labouring under a misconception with regard to energy payback on PV. However at a recent renewables seminar the manufacturers representatives were unable to provide figures to demonstrate either way. Nobody seemed to know about cleaning them either. Do they need cleaning to maintain output?

To answer Nortfifeduckling's point about wind turbines, they are a bit of a blot on the landscape, but can be much smaller than electricity pylons. The less efficient and significantly cheaper ones are noisy. In the 5 metre diameter group, efficiencies range from 6 to 30% and prices from £6 -25K. I worked on the basis that if you are going to install one on a limited site it should be the most efficient you can get and it turned out to be the quietest as well, completely drowned out by the nearby A38 traffic noise.

[northfifeduckling]

well, I did look at the planning application for the first one - none of us was supposed to see it (we all do) as it is either higher than planned or has moved form the planned spot and the sound was to be minimal....The first had to be taken down and replaced due to malfuntioning (hence the constant noise), but even the second I can hear, it does sound more like the actual motor rather than the wind.  More technical details here, OH looked at it from many angles in several posts.
 http://north-fife.blogspot.com/2011/07/wind-turbine-flisk-north-fife.html
our neighbour is a professional environmental consultant, so if even he can't get it completely right it's not that encouraging - but I spent the kids' college fund on the PV anyway and I'll just garden with earplugs on some days 
We all do our research and make our choices and hope they are the right ones for us, the environment and our neighbours. If you live in a noisy area and have lots of land - go for it.

[Dan]

Nobody seemed to know about cleaning them either. Do they need cleaning to maintain output?

PV panels will only operate at optimum performance if they are kept clean - dust, leaves, bird droppings and other air or rain-borne stuff will form a residue that will reduce the penetration of sunlight. I read somewhere (will try to dig out a link) that this can reduce efficiency by up to 5% depending on how severe it is and how often it rains.

Cleaning is as simple as rinsing with clean water apparently, and there are automatic cleaning systems on the market for larger installations. Good discussion here: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?8470-Cleaning-PV-panels

We haven't cleaned ours yet, one year in, but I will give them a hose down in the spring.

[waterhouse]

Masdar in Abu dhabi ran a comparison trial of a large number of different manufacturers panels a couple of years ago.  I don't think they ever published the results but they said at the time that some panels were withdrawn because they were performing very badly.  The Gulf is very dusty and the panels were cleaned daily: it was said that the drop-off in output was very significant.

[chrismahon]

Either side of the A38 are sand and gravel extraction works. A new one is opening up just 200 yards from us. The dust is very bad at the moment with the house windows dirty after a few days; the rain brings the dust down and it sticks to the vertical glass. It is going to get much worse obviously in Summer. Quite a few South facing roofs in the area now have PV panels, but cleaning them could be quite difficult with the height. I can see them as I drive through the village and they still all look clean, so do they have a dirt repellant coating on them?

[northfifeduckling]

do they have a dirt repellant coating on them?

yes, they do, so we were told