[Declan]

Heres one - a bit like a riddle- I've sold my 2 ram lambs at market- did okay- £86 per lamb for 24kg. I've now got my ram, 4 ewes and 3 ewe lambs- all together as they have been since last November.
I now know that i need to move my ram out- away from the ewes and also i need to move out the ewe lambs to dry off their mothers.
I've been told not to move the ewes onto fresh grass as the intention would be to dry them off on poorer grass- the fresh grass would only encourage milk production. Can i move the lambs out with their dad onto the rich grass next door? I'm guessing/hoping that the lambs wont be tupped by their father as they were only born in april. If i can how long does it take to dry off the mothers? Do i need to separate the ewe lambs from their father now too?

Once we get that sorted- am i correct in putting the ewes onto the rich grass to flush them before putting in the ram? How long do the ewes stay on their own before I bring in the ram?

Sorry theres a lot in there but any advice would be appreciated.
 

[egglady]

same query Declan, so I'm interested in the replies on this one - thanks for asking it!

[SallyintNorth]

First off, well done on the ram lamb prices, those are very good.

Some of the answers are breed dependent, also climate dependent, so please tell us what breed(s) are your sheep and where are you?

Assuming for the moment you don't have all-year breeders, very fast maturers and aren't somewhere really warm, you are probably ok at this time of year leaving the ewe lambs with their dad for a couple of weeks at least - which is plenty of time to dry their mums off.  Personally I would keep the ewe lambs away from the ram after that (assuming you are not planning to breed them this year.)

Flushing is optional; we avoid it as we are happier with good single lambs than smaller, slower-growing twins.  If you want as many lambs as possible then yes put the ewes on really good going a week or two before introducing the ram.  If you want the girls to lamb as close together as possible, it helps to run them with a teaser (usually a rig, ie, a ram whose testicle(s) are internal and whose sperm therefore is infertile) or failing that, in a smallish field with the ram next door so they can smell him, for 17 days or more before the ram goes in.

Especially if you have a lot of ewes for the ram, make sure he is in tip-top condition for the job - start about 7 or 8 weeks before you want him to work.  It takes sperm 6 weeks to be produced, so the sperm that will fertilise your first lambs are being produced 6 weeks before the ram joins the ladies.  Check him over and start feeding him before this - but don't get him fat.  It will help him if you can feed him while he is working - usually the 6-8 week build-up gets him pretty tame and eating from a bucket you are holding.

If your ewes have worked hard, for instance rearing twins and triples without additional food, you maybe want to be thinking in terms of 2-3 months after weaning before they are tupped.  If you have been feeding them, and/or they've been on very good ground, or they've mostly reared singles, then they'll need less time to recover and rebuild their condition.

In the run-up to your desired tupping date, monitor the ewes' condition using 'condition score'.  Ewes should be fit but not fat going to the tup; a hill ewe condition score 2-2.5, a lowland ewe 2.5-3.  (Basically you should be able to feel the vertebrae and ribs with a little pressure but there should be muscle either side of the vertebrae; it shouldn't be concave. 4 is fat, can't feel the vertebrae without quite a lot of pressure; 2 is slim, can feel the vertebrae easily.)  It takes a minimum of two weeks to make an appreciable difference to condition score.  So check them at least 6 weeks before tupping and seperate them into 'thin', 'fat' and 'fit'.  Feed up the 'thin' and control input for the 'fat'.  Check them every two weeks and take action if thin ewes are not improving.

For maximum lambs the ewe should be 'on a rising plane of nutrition', ie, her intake and condition should be increasing as she goes to the tup.

I hope that helps.  Tell us a bit more about your situation and we can give more specific, less general advice.

Sally

[princesspiggy]

what are the chances of a ram lamb being able to work this year, and how long would you wait before finishing with a proven ram?

[SallyintNorth]

what are the chances of a ram lamb being able to work this year

Very high indeed.  If he's a March/April lamb you may decide to just give him 12-15 or so girls this first time.  If he's earlier and well-grown, he could manage a few more.  We bought a Charollais ram lamb last year and he did a grown man's work and then some - but he'd been born in January, Charollais grow very fast and he was very easy to cake so we could keep condition on him while he worked and would have taken him off if he'd been losing condition.

how long would you wait before finishing with a proven ram?

It depends on what you are wanting to achieve.  If you are not sure what his lambs will be like, just leave him on for a week or ten days, then switch.  Your first lambs are his - if you don't like them, sell him then.  If you want a compressed lambing, then ditto, just give him a week to ten days.  If you don't mind lambing for 5 weeks or longer, give him a full 17 day cycle then swap.  If the proven ram is busy after the first few days, your ram lamb didn't work.

In all the above, if the ram lamb seems unhappy, is losing condition / won't eat cake, don't leave him on too long.  It can take rams a long time to regain condition they lose while tupping and a ram lamb is just a baby so trying to grow at the same time.

I would definitely start a ram lamb with a smallish number of experienced ewes - he will take a few days to learn what to do (and where, and how many times!  ) and it won't help him to be learning on virgins!  Also, some older ewes can be quite aggressive with a ram that won't see to their needs and you don't want him put off the job!  At the very start he won't realise there are other ewes needing his attentions, he'll continue to see to the first one he finds, possibly until he can barely stand.  So be prepared for some of the girls to return to the tup at the beginning of the second cycle and don't condemn the ram lamb for that - he was probably working hard, just not on every ewe he could have!  If you can raddle him, that will help to show who he has seen to - and where, and an indication of how many times...  After a few days he'll get the hang of it all and settle down to working through his flock every day.  If they're in a big field and he's not gathering today's lovelies around him each morning, go in a couple of times a day and gather the ewes around him so he picks up on any who are ready.

Finally, if your ewes are very woolly, particularly if the wool isn't the softest, do the boy a favour and give the girls a trim.  At least 7-10 days before the ram lamb will join them, clip off all the wool around the lady parts (as they call them up here  ) - and if they have woolly tails, clip that wool off too.  Don't do it less than 7 days before he joins them - for the first few days the wool grows back rather scratchy...   

[princesspiggy]

how long would you wait before finishing with a proven ram?

[/quote]

i only have 1 boreray tup lamb for a very small flock of boreray gimmers and ewes. my 2nd ram is a proven hebridean. i wanting purebred lambs but would rather have xbred than no lambs at all. i would like to give him enough time to work? i dont want lambs born too late either. hes april born and will be in a 1 acre paddock.

a friend of mine relied on a tup lamb to mate his 40 ewes and only had 2 lambs.
also the lambs we bought last year were pregnant. i thinking that is too young and will separate our gimmer lamb.  
thanx

[egglady]

what a brilliantly informative thread...thank you soooo much

[Fronhaul]

I would be inclined not to put the tup in with primitive lambs but to wait until the following year to allow them to grow on.

Have you enough paddocks to separate them into three groups?  If so it might be worth doing what we do.  Identify your best sheep and put the tup lamb in with them.  Hopefully this group might include experienced ewes and maybe just one or two shearlings.  No more than 6 or 7 in that group.  Give them a full 17 day cycle and then think about adding the remainder of the females that are old enough to go to the tup.  Don't worry if you don't see him working.  I didn't see our tup lamb cover a single ewe last year and of the six he had in the main group all but the shearling lambed within a week of each other.

I would say 40 is too many for a tup lamb unless he was very mature, and probably one of the more commercial breeds.

[Pasture Farm]

During my early years i found myself short of individual paddock space and was assured by my friend that my three Ewe lambs born in March would be ok with a Tup lamb of the same age until 6 months old. The next year two of the ewes gave birth to huge single lambs one of the Ewes died as did its lamb due to me knowing nothing about them being in lamb and also due to my inexperience at lambing time with a hung lamb. The second Ewe gave birth with my help again a hung lamb that died during the birth although the Ewe lived for many years and gave birth to many lambs after.

 


 

[Old Shep]

what a brilliantly informative thread...thank you soooo much

Yes thanks - just the questions we are thinking about too! Brilliant!

[jaykay]

I shall spain (separate to wean) our tup (ram) lambs from the flock in the next week or so. The gimmer (ewe) lambs can stay a while, I think their mums have pretty much weaned them, watching them and the ewes are in good condition.

I usually have 15-20 ewes for the tup and successfully use a tup lamb every other year (since we don't tup hoggs (this year's lambs) we change our tups every 2 years). I find I can afford the quality I want better in a lamb, can't afford the shearling tups I want! Yes, we 'crutch' the ewes ie clip the wool from their tail ends, as ours have huge fleeces.