Author Topic: How dwarf can dwarves be? (Read 2569 times)

YorkshireLass · « **on:** July 31, 2011, 04:24:34 pm »

As a follow on from http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=16281.msg162819#msg162819

How small can I expect a healthy, strong tree to be? I see not point in buying a stunted, pot bound, patio-destined pitiful thing; but equally I don't want to end up with a triffid.

My initial thoughts are towards attempting a forest garden/permaculture setup. However I don't want to shade the whole plot, the front house windows, or to "waste" the sun-trap. Maybe one or two could be trained ("espalier"?) along the sun-trap wall? Or would anything like the north-east facing wall?
Fruit-wise, I like plums, damsons... I have seen "family trees" but know nothing about the pros/cons. I'm not afraid of pruning; maybe a delicate soul is not the best for a first attempt!

In terms of other fruits, I'd like some autumn raspberries, alpine strawberries... I gather raspberries would be okay in the partial shade of the tree?

arborexplora · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2011, 08:48:18 pm »

Espaliers would work well, I have started 3 apples along our fence and they are doing really well (only been in 2 years).

It is the grafted root stock that will limit their overall size, check out the link below.

http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/popup_image.php?pID=851&image=0&osCsid=fcd2722dd8d48ffa696494f8028f0a54

I would go for the M26 rootstock

Regards Richard

pgkevet · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2011, 09:19:04 pm »

Espaliers are cool and easy to look after, prune etc there is also the option of using step-over apples as borders to beds if you want variety ..or family apple trees.

The thing really is having the patience to wait for new trees to come in to fruit.

Adam's apples looks to have competitive prices

You can cordon pears, fan train cherries etc... (and if there's room then don't forget the nuts and figs)
In my current garden i espaliered an apple alongside the greenhouse.. acts as summer shade.. the branch spacing is up to you..

lachlanandmarcus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2011, 10:57:50 pm »

Apparently being patient and removing ALL the small fruits that form the first year can have a 30% enhancement of fruit production over the life of the fruit tree, so painful tho it was I did that this year with my newbies! Hope the experts are right!

Simon O · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2011, 08:37:33 am »

Agree M26, needs permanent support, any more vigorous and you will def get a lot of shading or have to do a lot of hard pruning, but even they can be quite vigorous depending on variety of apple. Website orange pippin gives an idea of the growth potential of each variety combined with each rootstock. Depending on length of the wall cordons could be good, and be planted every 2 and a half feet if necessary, better angled but can be grown vertically. I have had good supplies mail order from Adam's Apples and as said price is quite good. Andrew Lear (appletreeman) does not think you need to remove all apples in first year. He is moving into apple supplies. I would love to grow stepovers round my beds, think it would look great

YorkshireLass · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2011, 04:21:07 pm »

Wouldn't M27 or M9 do better as a dwarf?

I now picturing high-step-overs - a living fence! Overambitious perhaps...

Can any fruit tree be trained in an espalier/cordon/stepover fashion?

Simon O · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2011, 04:56:40 pm »

Gooseberries make a good cordon - there are some greatlooking vertical cordon gooseberries in Kellie Castle Garden in Fife which makes me want to try that - think it wd make the picking easier. Redcurrants are supposed to do well too. Pears of course. I think the growth pattern of plums/cherries/ peaches etc are more suited to fans.
I think that in Scotland and north england the m26 wd be better as the vigour is also a function of the climate. I think I remember Andrew Lear saying it was not worth trying anything dwarfer than M26. However I am sure they wd work, just plant closer together. Each individual tree wd produce a smaller crop. The stepovers will be growing sideways so will still grow a fair distance just not up.