[SallyintNorth]

And if so, can anyone say whether the only affordable (for a very small flock) version of Clipfitter, the hybrid version, is good enough for a handful of moderate-sized and smaller lambs each year?  Or will not do larger lambs, or won't last, even with very light use, or whatever?

[Bishybarneybee]

Hi Sally, the National Sheep Association (NSA) had a webinar earlier this week about the Tailing and Castration consultation.

The Webinar  covered Clipfitter and Numnuts and is now up on YouTube. Not sure if it will answer any of your questions.

The link is https://nationalsheep.org.uk/webinars/understanding-the-tailing-and-castration-consultation-a-guide-for-sheep-farmers/

[Penninehillbilly]

I saw this, it was frustrating over the slides not moving on, but generally lots of useful info.
It was a bit concerning when one of the presenters said the clipfitters sometimes came off, and it didn't seem a very inclusive trial, only 88 lambs?
I'm still not convinced, maybe I've been lucky, I ring at 3 days and i've only seen 1 tup lamb show any discomfort, and he was up and running with his mum within 30 mins. (not many sheep here, so I watch them), also I only castrate the males and tail the females, so I can see what they are at a glance.

[SallyintNorth]

Aw, thanks for that.  It took me a while to navigate through to the actual video so I'll put that link here for anyone else.  linky

[SallyintNorth]

It was a bit concerning when one of the presenters said the clipfitters sometimes came off, and it didn't seem a very inclusive trial, only 88 lambs?

Yes it was a small trial, but there seemed to be pretty clear differences. 

On the clips coming off, that was only on the largest of the older lambs, where the testes were by now pretty huge. 

She said her pragmatic take was, if they're too big to clip at this stage, they'll be away entire soon enough for there to be no problem, so don't clip them.  And anything with smaller testes at that stage, the clips seemed to work fine, so they could be castrated at that stage. 

But I think they'd need to do more, bigger and longer term studies to see whether any of the clips fell off before the testes were fully disintegrated, so that you might get functional tups in lambs that has been castrated that way.

I'm still not convinced, maybe I've been lucky, I ring at 3 days and i've only seen 1 tup lamb show any discomfort, and he was up and running with his mum within 30 mins. (not many sheep here, so I watch them), also I only castrate the males and tail the females, so I can see what they are at a glance.

I hadn't realised until watching this that it is now established that there are longer term effects of castration by rubber rings, many of which cause longer term pain.  And that the pain which last for hours or days can create longer term effects on lambs if the castration is done very young.  So that there is actually an argument that it's better to castrate later than 7 days, as the impact of the assault to the tissues is more readily overcome at a later stage.  Since it seems now inarguable that there is considerable pain whatever stage rings are used, the direction of travel seems to be that if rings are used then anaesthesia and analgesia must also be used, whatever age the lamb is, and so if that becomes the case then ringing lambs at less than 24 hours for sure and possibly up to 7 days will probably be outlawed, as there is no benefit to the younger ringing, and considerable downside.

Sorry, this is probably a bit garbled.  I'd like to write a really considered summary because it was full of information and perspective that was new to me, but sadly I won't have time just at the moment.

[SallyintNorth]

But I do want to capture a few salient points while I remember.

Lambs feel pain from castrating with rubber rings.  At the time, for 10-30 minutes intensely, for a period of up to a few days significantly, and in some cases there is inflammation right through until the packet drops off.

Clipfits appear to deliver less pain at all stages, and, once the technique is learned, to be fairly foolproof to fit.  If I understood correctly, anaesthesia is unnecessary, as the device effectively severs the nerve which would carry pain signals back to the brain at the same time as it crushes the cords.  (Similar to how a burdizzo works, but the clips are very much easier to apply.) 

Numbnuts deliver anaesthetic at the point of ringing, which takes away all pain at that point and for a little while afterrwards.  Some of the longer term effects are reduced by the lambs not having had the trauma at the time of the procedure, but the anaesthetic will wear off before the tissue has become deadened, so the best practise is likely to be to give analgesia at the same time, which would kick in as the anaesthesia wears off.  But using rings, even if applied pain free, there can still be some pain from inflammation right through until the packet drops off.

[SallyintNorth]

There's an excellent article in the DASH Newsletter on the subject.  I'm going to see if they'd let me post it here (or can do so themselves.) 

Meanwhile, anyone who's a member of DASH and/or has access to their newsletter, have a read; it's the summary I'd have tried to write if I'd had the time available, minus anything about the research on pain and long term effects of unmedicated ringing and plus a bit of "impact on smallholders" perspective.  Oh, and it doesn't mention the hybrid version of the ClipFitter, which would make a cheaper option for smallholders - if it is suitable.

Tomorrow is the last day to contribute to the consultation.  Apparently it's annoying and difficult (quelle surprise  ), so make yourself your favourite hot beverage and get a piece of chocolate cake or whatever is a big treat to you to sustain you as you work through it!  https://zcv3-zcmp.maillist-manage.eu/click/13bee9b70756cbcb/13bee9b70756c3f5