[messyhoose]

i dont mean this to sound glib but problems seem to come in waves.
so no sooner am i over a false pregnancy and the on going treatment for liver fluke that a 1 yo castrate who rehomed here in April has gone down.
I immediately treated for fluke (he was due a next preventative dose next week) but after watching him through the window he seems to be showing more "labour pains" than my ewes usually show when similarly fluke sick.
Suddenly it dawns on me he is acting like my beloved passed castrate of 10 years who had 2 bouts of urolitholiasis (one given surgery at the royal vet college london, the other here in orkney being a death sentence).

I know this is my fault. And Everyone will get NO TREATS again (for the time being) but he is still alive and i need to try to help him til know he is beyond help: Vet  obvs off island plus its also bank hoiliday so fewer actual planes for meds to come over here on too.

I have given him ammonium chloride (a legacy of my past loss 10 y ago) and metacam and antibiotic. Vet may be able to send muscle relaxants on the plane tomorrow afternoon (if he is still alive) Ive asked islanders if they may have some human meds in their cabnets but no.

so my Q is - how long does ammonium chloride take to takeeffect? DO i allow him to strain for 24 hours or less? He was eating a but of dandilion, grass and willow but ive seen this all before but the last time i had him pts immediately (as was second bout). Could the AmCl take effect and clear a possible small blockage? I dont even know how he got blocked- he does get a bit of tup mix but not for long and was castrated much later than my departed lad (3 months vs 3 days).

Just some experiences to read would help us get through the night, myt neighbour has a humane dispatcher of which i am most thankful but i dont want to give up too soon.
thanks

[Fleecewife]

Well the big question is: Is he passing urine? If not it is a veterinary emergency as you are aware.


Before I had ever heard of urinary calculi in sheep we were told by the late Marshal Watson, vet, that there is a small narrow piece at the end of the penis that should be chopped off in this particular emergency.  I never saw exactly what he meant and have never experienced this problem in any of our sheep so I can't advise.  In humans a catheter is passed pronto to relieve the pressure. I would have no idea how to catheterise a sheep if it's even possible.  If left then the bladder will burst.


So watch him for a bit to see if he passes urine (use binoculars).  That sort of convulsive straining in a male sheep can be a 'sexual frustration' thing, but assume the emergency not the easy answer.  If it is a urinary blockage then your sheep will be in agony, so before his bladder bursts, shoot him if no vet can attend. I know you won't want to do that but in your situation and for his welfare, it could be the only route to go.


Tup and lamb coarse mix is available to use as a treat for male sheep without the risk of urinary calculi.

[messyhoose]

thanks fleecewife yes i only get in TUP mix as it as a bit of ammonium chloride in it but vet said so little theyd have to eat loads to benefit from it.

I wont let him suffer but i have always felt i was too quick to act wiith my previous lad- i saw the straining, gave him the AmCL but then called a man with a gun who came within 3 hours.I always wondered what if id given the drug more time to take eftect........

With my first lad the vet came on the first instance and tried to draw out the penis to check the end and could not do so, so it is not an easy endeavour. I believe there is a whiplike end which is thin and so easily blocked- but i would be hard pressed to find and amputate it.

Having read so much over the years and been made to feel like a bad mom i do think part of it is hereditary and rest environmental (ie feeding/ husbandry). I never wanted any males again after losing Raphael- i was distraught. But i now have a 7yo ram and a 4 yo castrate who have not died on me and i hope the 2 castrate lambs i got this year (they share the sick boys mom)  dont go the same way but i will cut out the treats now for sure.

Ill give it til morn and treat with more AmCl this eve and hope for a miracle.....

[Fleecewife]

   Let us know how he is in the morning and what you decide.

[twizzel]

Having had a lamb with urolithiasis, straining like you mention indicates severe pain. The vet drained my lambs bladder for temporary relief which stopped the straining but by the next day he was back to straining so was put down. The only humane thing to do if you can’t get a vet is to put him down, sorry.

[messyhoose]

thank you guys
yes i did the right thing and got my neighbour round to put the poor lad down.
am so angry at myself for allowing this to happen again. I did so much research on it the last time.
I tell you what is my problem- i am renting a very small piece of land (there is nothing available elsewjere, we would have to move) and i have been advised this area is flukey (i dont know why it is so bad compared to other areas of the island- but despite preventative treatments i am still getting them going down sick every now and again.
so in thinking the land is "toxic" i have tried to compensate with concentrates (not entirely- they get hay and bagged dried grass and grass pellets and vegetables too)
I worry if i deny them concentrates they will eat more grass and get fluke even more often- i cant win.

is there any way flukey land can be salvaged or should i finally accept defeat and try to find a way to leave...? am starting to lose the will or ability to carry on.

[twizzel]

Can you get your vet to help with a dosing schedule for fluke? I do mine 3 times a year.


R.e preventing the calculi, sometimes you can only do so much. The lamb I lost had been fed hay and creep containing ammonium chloride and had rock salt available. He still got it 

[Fleecewife]

I see your dilemma messyhoos but I don't have any ideas to help.  You did the right thing about your lad so you can be content about that.  I know your vets are off-island but when one does appear, can you have an in-depth discussion with them of your options and ask for help to prepare a health plan? If you and the vets can agree on a plan then you each know what the other can and can't do, when.  I get the impression you are floundering a bit and need some definitive veterinary input you can have confidence in.


Updated: Mr F has just come up with a suggestion of DUCKS, which apparently hoover up the mud snails that are the vector for fluke.  Any help?

[SallyintNorth]

I farmed on wetlands in Northumberland, fluke was endemic.  There are thousands of sheep living perfectly happily all across that region, but they do need routine fluke treatment.  Every other month from October thru March, and occasionally through summer too when the conditions dictate.

If you treat the fluke prophylactically you will not need to restrict their access to grass, and it is keeping sheep on other than grass that is causing the calculi.  Give them ad lib grass, hay when the grass is not enough, no concentrates, no treats, and always plenty of fresh water, and drench for fluke as above.

[Anke]

I farmed on wetlands in Northumberland, fluke was endemic.  There are thousands of sheep living perfectly happily all across that region, but they do need routine fluke treatment.  Every other month from October thru March, and occasionally through summer too when the conditions dictate.

If you treat the fluke prophylactically you will not need to restrict their access to grass, and it is keeping sheep on other than grass that is causing the calculi.  Give them ad lib grass, hay when the grass is not enough, no concentrates, no treats, and always plenty of fresh water, and drench for fluke as above.

Somehow I doubt that sheep that have to be dosed with a highly toxic substance (toxic to other species, esp the organisms that would deal with the sheep droppings, but not nice for the sheep either...) every 6 weeks or so are "perfectly happy". TBC has a 2 months' meat withdrawal time. Have you looked at the side effects that TBC has for humans... I personally think we have to have serious re-think about keeping livestock on ground that is really not suitable for them (or at least to be able to live without constant medication)....


Fluke needs to complete its life cycle inside another host, so not grazing land for an extended period you should be able to reduce the fluke burden massively, as will a sharp frost, ducks may or may not help.

[messyhoose]

Anke i agree, i really feel trapped here now.
I want to try to find some land on the island to put my guys on (for how long i dont know as the survivability of fluke on land without the  sheep host could be years rather than months given the temperature and rainfall up here)
I really dont know why i have fluke here - it is not island wide!! I suspect in the past someone imported non native sheep to the area i am grazing and prob didnt worm or quarantine- cos while mud snails are all over surely the fluke worms are not....
i really feel like the best thing is for the SSPCA to take them and me leave this area as i can not make it work. A lovely grass field aint as lovely as it looks.

[Anke]

If you are "rescuing" sheep - lambs that may have had a bad start to life anyway having flukey grazing is not going to help. However it looks to me like something else is going on as well, if the sheep problems you are having means that you are thinking of leaving the island...


Why not just taking a break from sheep - by all means see if you can get the SSPCA to take them on, but that is just pushing the problem onto someone else - if these sheep have had recurring fluke issues their livers may not be able to heal anymore and it may be kinder to have them PTS, and go and enjoy the ones on the foreshore (I take it you are on Ronaldsey?)