[messyhoose]

Hi all, i havent been here for a while but i got another problem i wonder if someone in the group might offer advice on as my vet is not very helpful on this occasion (not their fault tbh)

so back story- i had 4 pet north ronaldsays ewes (ex feral), on permanent grass now but access to the seaweed. All rescued as lambs- i use the wool but do not breed them.

SInce January Poppy my 8 yo carried on having seasons (i spend too much time with them so i know when they are in season!!) and carried on through March. I asked my vet, they said it happens, nothing to worry about.
Then in April i decide to bring a ram i rescued 7 years ago home permanently as he was not doing well on the shore and i put raddle paint on him cos i decided 1) it was mid april and the islands ronnies were lambing, 2) he was very thin and unfit 3) i could tell when my girls were in season and could segregate him on those days (only Poppy). But the dye was supposed to put my mind at ease...hohum

However a week after his arrival Poppy had a red bum as did her sister!!
I rang the vet to arrange his castration and for them to have an abortion injection (after doing research that that was a possibility and deciding a September lambing for 2 older first time moms would not be great for them)
Meantime Poppy was mated again (i changed dye to blue) 7 days after previous so i assumed therefore these were not real seasons if they werent taking.
Rammy got castrated and girls had their injections- Poppy being day 9 after the last mating and the data states injections work betw 10 and 50 days after mating. But the vet comes when they can  to this place (im on a wee island- and they wouldnt let me have the injection to give myself) Daisy was day 20.

So back to the present: So the day before the Queens passing (as it happens) i go out to feed my lot early cos we are having a power cut and i didnt want to do it in the dark- and Poppy doesnt come up so i go looking for her and she is obsessing over a patch of ground- licking the grass and circling and sniffing and licking some more- and her bum is wet, tho not bloody. SH**T! thinks i and go look but there is nothing on the ground and she eventually comes for a biscuit tho doesnt want to eat much, and her sides look hollowed at the top now.
I go look at the diary and it is day 144 after the first mating! So im thinking- is she going into labour??
The last few days ive been checking her every 4 hours day and night but she has not shown any other signs than that day and the morning after where she kept looking at her sides and licking herself (not scratching an itch but licking). She is weeing and pooing and chewing the cud all normally.
On vet advice i tried to have a feel- and she is not open so i left her be. But she is not herself, she is not eating well (now very picky and normally she is a pig) and just acting a bit tired and like she cant be bothered (she usually a hyper bunny)

So the vet says "its possible" but could not give any experiential advice when i asked is this a pregnancy (drug only 95% effective esp if done early) or maybe a "water- baby"- ie a pseudo pregnancy?? Was the waters that i witnessed (i had been cuddling her only 3 hours earlier btw)  and what she was so obsessed with on the ground a phantom pregnancy and is that it? Or could this be the precursor to a real pregnancy?

My fear is the abortion drug may have affected a viable foetus- and  would she still then have contractions or would she not bother? I guess my big fear is i am missing something and am not helping her lamb as i can not see any signs of birthing.

The added issue with this is i suffer liver fluke problems here and she has regularly got sick and needs frequent flukicide dosing (its not ideal at all- i rent here and didnt know the issue when i moved here). A fluke crisis does look a bit like lambing too- another ewe who also seems to be more prone went off byu herself and lay down and looked like she was straining but it is due to the stomach pain from the fluke invasion- so i only fluke wormed Poppy 3 weeks ago and she isnt due for another til another 2 months- but could this wet year (its been unusially wet in scotland this summer) mean the fluke has been more of a problem and she needs redosing....? I only hesitate due to the issues with over use of wormers in general.

ill prob dose for fluke tomorrow and wait and see re pregnancy but if anyone has possibly had this situation ( i know deliberately aborting a ewe is pretty much unheard of) then id lve to hear.
sorry for long story, is not easy to condense
Hels

[twizzel]

Can your vet ultrasound scan her? That would put your mind at rest. We had a heifer that failed to abort after being jabbed, she was done at the right time after running and subsequently being separated from the bull, but it didn’t work. 9ish months later her calf came out the side door  Nothing is 100%. So maybe she is in lamb and will lamb this week 

[shep53]

Two different points to answer , if a ewe starts to lamb and stops for what ever reason then the lamb starts to die and swell then tissue breakdown , this will sicken the mother and kill her within  24-48 hrs . You say she is eating /drinking but lethargic  so  poorly but not really  sick , so  start by checking tail area any blood at all ? then stand over her with one leg either side facing her tail , bend down and  put both hands round her tummy just in front of her udder , pull upwards and if there is a lamb you should be able to feel its body ? does she have an udder  ?   if she has lambed then udder and blood will be yes and stomach will be no . Could she have lambed a small / dead lamb and its been taken by a predator , of which you will have many . Take her temp if possible and speak to your vet , she may need an injection .  Fluke  can be really bad and you may need to treat every 6wks in a wet year , check the sheeps gums and whites of the eye to see if they are aenemic  , i see from another post you use Fasinex this is the best product for fluke but with long term use resistance can develop so ideally you would test fec for fluke eggs then dose , then at a period agreed with your vet  retest fec to see if the product has worked.  Have a read of SCOPS ,while i understand it is difficult with a few sheep to buy small amounts of wormer /fluckicide it is recommended  to use Fasinex or similar in late summer / autumn / early winter then Flukiver or similar  or Trodax or similar  winter    and  a white wormer at fluke rate to kill adult fluke late spring . I hope this helps

[Anke]

If she came into season once a week then most likely she will have ovarian cysts, a common problem in older goats (esp if not kidded every year) and one that is almost impossible to treat (and get the goat in kid again). Not often seen in sheep, but again most likely comon except that very few sheep get to the age of 8, esp without regular pregnancies and lambing. I have culled goats that became cystic, simply because it makes management very difficult and the goats become non-breeders.


Same for pseudo pregnancies, which is what I think she had - again common in goats to cloudburst (even without ever being near a male at all). The signs you are giving are all there - damp at her back end, acting as if kid/lamb shoudl be there and be quite distressed that it isn't. She may even have an udder and produce some milk, though mine so far never have. She should calm down a day or so, same she would if she had a dead lamb.


However I would be very worried about an older and very skinny ewe, and on my farm I will euthanise sheep (and goats) that do not thrive anymore in older age.

[messyhoose]

thank you all- it is never simple is it? I did ask vet about scanning earlier on but they were not keen on coming out here with the kit for 1 ewe. They have to take a day out to be here so we have to get others farmers together to request a visit (and i even offered to pay a full days pay in the past to get them to come over just for one of my animals and they wouldnt).
I was fearful of cysts and the like cos of the frequent seasons earlier in the year- again vet not v helpful- "see how she goes"
Aside from that, i am tending towards cloudburst (having had breeding goats in the past i was aware of this condition and sheep are not that disimilar to goats in most respects)
She doesnt have an udder or blood on her- just was soaking wet and more "caved in" since Thursday. No temp and i have seen her every 4 hours at the longest since Thurs morn (i gave her back scratch just 3 hours before the wet incident). Im 99% certain id have witnessed straining/ contractions if she had done them, as im around so much. But theres still that 1% worry

As she is not being greedy i have re-fluke wormed her this morn (although i only fluked her 5 weeks ago and after A LOT of research this year i worked out a 10 week plan with 2 types of flukicide (to avoid resistance occuring fast)- ive asked vets on numerous occasions to help me with a health plan but they have never come good on the request, so it all all based on NADIS data/ advice

In Orkney it has been a wetter summer than usual, and very warm- so maybe more ideal for a fluke crisis. Im using Triclabendazole for anyone sick and Albendazole for non emergencies.

So thanks for some reassurance, ill give her 48 hours for the flukicide to do its magic and next sunday is the 145 day of her 2nd mating (if it was an actual mating). If anything extraordinary happens ill report back

[shep53]

Albendazole is a white wormer and in the case of fluke is given at double rate ,but should only be used in spring as it only kills adult fluke and for most of the year its immatures that cause the damage

[Penninehillbilly]

Could you take her to the vet for scanning?
We often take goats to vets rather than them coming to us.
Vets have treated animals in the back of the van sometimes.

[Anke]

Could you take her to the vet for scanning?
We often take goats to vets rather than them coming to us.
Vets have treated animals in the back of the van sometimes.

I think original poster is on one of the Orkney isalnds, so vet is quite difficult to get hold off and taking animnal to vet in the back of a van (as I do) is probably not an option.

[Penninehillbilly]

Quote-I think original poster is on one of the Orkney isalnds, so vet is quite difficult to get hold off and taking animnal to vet in the back of a van (as I do) is probably not an option.

Just thought maybe OP may go to mainland sometimes ☺

[messyhoose]

hi all
so an update.
After the flukicide took effect Poppy was back to her greedy self and most definitely not showing labour signs and its been a week and she is still not so i am of the opinion the 145 mark last week coinciding with the watery output must have been a cloudburst and then fluke struck to confise matters.

So thanks all- am happy she is ok and didnt want lambs but this fluke is a b*gger that i fear will affect my flock forever unless i can win the lottery and move! :/

I dont like preventatively worming as am terrified of causing resistant strains but them i thought dogs and cats get wormed monthly so maybe a 10 week plan is not going to be a major environmental issue.
I have just ordered a big box of vermex and am going to feed them all that as directed to see if the worms can be killed when they eat them and before they get into the liver and harm the sheep.

anyone using vermex much...?

[Anke]

anyone using vermex much...?

Vermex is NOT a wormer, it is a feed additive which may (or may not) make a worm infestation less likely. I wouldn't think it has any effect on fluke whatsoever, if it did sheep farmers on the west coast of Scotland would be feeding it in tons and not using flukicide every few weeks.


Is it really worth farming sheep (or cattle or goats) in areas that are so prone to fluke infestations? I personally think it is unfair on the animal to subject them to these treatments regularly, but I am lucky that my land is relatively dry and having closed both my sheep flock and my goat herd I have not had any worm issues for a while.

[Backinwellies]

Pleased to hear she has recovered.   Have you thought about some mixed grazing to reduce worm/fluke burden?   Dabbling ducks keep my wettest patch freer of the snails needed for fluke reproduction and cattle also graze my fields clearing the sheep worm infestation in the process .

[twizzel]

Fluke and worms are very different, and whilst adult sheep should have some immunity to worms, they do not have immunity to fluke. So whilst routine worming of adult sheep is not best practice, I think routine fluke drenching is still advisable in high risk fluke areas, which yours sounds like it is.


If you used albex as someone said earlier it will only kill adult fluke when given at the fluke dose; this time of year a triclabendazole flukicide is more suitable as it kills all stages of fluke.


So whilst I would still keep up the fluke drenching, I would still do worm egg counts for worms; even in Orkney you should be able to do a postal worm egg count if it’s not practical for your vet to do it (I think you can order online and then send in the post).


I wouldn’t use vermex, it’s not a wormer.

[messyhoose]

thanks all
re reading my post i should have said i intend on using the vermex as well as the triclobendazole ive been using every 10 weeks, in a (hopeful) attempt that it destroys worms entering the gut in the week after using the chemical flukicide- my thought process being the flukicide does not habe a retained effect, so after dosing and the animal re grazing contaminated land if during that week they eat the vermex it will kill fluke in the gut before they migrate to the liver and so give the animal a longer period between reinfections (without haing to reduce the time between fluke dosing) It was an idea i thought up and have no idea if it will help

I also have albendazole which i use if someone is not showing symptoms.

I bought 4 ducks a few weeks ago in an attmept to see if biological control may work- so far i have struggled to get the blighters to leave their quarantine paddock (the back garden) so i may have to be mean and withhold food til they go out exloring during the day! (ie feed only at night to get them "in".

at this time i am trying everything i can as i am realising this idyllic home is not all i had hoped it would be

[twizzel]

If you have been dosing every 10 weeks with tbz, have you considered whether you might have resistance to that active ingredient?