Author Topic: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.  (Read 5417 times)

ryuj

  • Joined Sep 2022
New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« on: September 11, 2022, 08:52:30 pm »
Hello, I just adopted 2 orphan male lambs as pets currently 2 weeks old and having a bit of complications regarding raising them. This is my first time raising lamb this young and having to learn as I go.

One of the lambs are having bloating and scouring issues, and from reading the information online, I ve been giving 6 feeds per day at 15% of it's body weight, yoghurtising the milk and feeding it cold. The situation hasn't seem to have improved, although it doesn't seem to have gotten worse. I went to the local vet and has given me 3 doses if duplocilin antibiotics which has been administered but that hasn't helped either. They advised me to continue with yoghurtising and cold feeds. But from reading the post regarding bloat on this forum, one of the members says to put it on rehydration fluid for atleast 24 hours. Is rehydration fluid to lambs given the same way as giving milk in bottles? Not sure the method to administer it.

Also we recently been experiencing one of the lambs bleeding while feeding from the bottle milk few days ago. It looks like it has wort like blisters on the lips and in the gums possibly causing the bleeding. From reading, I believe this is orf? Do I still continue feeding even though it continues to bleed everytime I feed it milk? I am a little worried that the gum area won't heal as it's being agitated everytime during feeds. I ve been trying to put some antiseptic liquid on the lips but not on the gums as unsure whether it can be consumed or not. Do i just let it run its course as there are no treatment to this?

Also the other lamb has inflamed gums on its bottom teeth. It's quite red, slightly swollen. It hasn't gotten any better during the 2 weeks, but hasn't gotten worse either. I realized he was like ever since we brought him over. But I think this is not related to orf? I am not sure.

Never realised there would be so much health related issues when raising lambs! I am not sure the local vet knows how to deal with the situation as they deal more with smaller animals. There doesn't seem to be a livestock specialist or I could be wrong. I am currently residing in Christchurch.

Any advise would be great. Really want my lambs to grow healthy and live as long as possible to graze our paddocks.

Thank you

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2022, 09:05:15 pm »
I take it these are orphan lambs - and so may not have got a good amount of colostrum from their dams at birth - this is probably the main reason behind your problems.


All you can do is continue to feed, and while giving rehydration fluid for 24 hours may help it may also not. Also the "bloat and gurgling of it's stomach" is likely what we would call rattle belly - and in my experience very difficult to resolve.


I have never seen orf in lambs this young, so no idea if that is what you are seeing.


I am sorry, not much help, but problems like these are nigh on impossible to resolve over the internet without seeing the animal. You really want to find a proper farm vet practice and/or an expereinced shepherd who can advise. What abouit the farm you bought these two lambs from? Why were they sold?

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2022, 09:32:00 am »
What milk are you using, and what volumes are you giving?

How much yoghurt are you adding and how much?

(Some lamb milks irritate open wounds, hence my asking which one you are using.)

A photo of the lesions - the ones you think could be orf and the gums of the other lamb - would be useful.

Yes, rearing orphan lambs is fraught with issues.  They often haven't had the best start in life. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2022, 12:17:27 pm »
Dont forget orf is highly contagious  and humans can catch it, i wore disposable gloves when treating ours. (I bought some special paste, but it hadnt to go on gums). If i hadnt discovered the paste I was going to put Sudocrem in it. Has soothing properties.
I've just been reading about gums bleeding (picture shown was orf),
It did say use soft teats and sterilize between feeding.
Should clear up in a week.


I may be wrong, but I though milk ratio was 10%, at 2wk> spread over 4 feeds.
Are they on creep  with roughage to nibble at?

silkwoodzwartbles

  • Joined Apr 2016
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2022, 02:01:36 pm »
Sounds like you've been well and truly thrown in the deep end! Are the boys castrated as otherwise you need to consider that you are likely to be rearing them to go into the freezer rather than to keep as lawnmowers, as rams don't make good pets.

As the others have said, their issues are likely to be as a result of insufficient colostrum at birth and there is only a 50/50 chance that they will live, even with the very best of care. If they do live, they still may not thrive.

What colour is the scour and have you taken the lamb's temperature? Are you mixing the milk exactly in accordance with the instructions on the packet? It can be very confusing when they say mix x grams of milk to x millimetres of water as what they actually mean is to make the milk up with powder and water to the x millimetre line on your measuring jug, not to add that amount of water to the powder. Too much water in the milk is likely to lead to scouring.

Orf is a nightmare to treat but you have to let it run its course. Putting Himalayan salt licks in with them can help dry it up a little quicker so is worth a try. Don't forget to cocci drench at 3-4 weeks old as pet lambs are very prone to it and it can kill them very quickly.

Good luck!  :fc:

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2022, 10:39:20 pm »
Just paging [member=221365]ryuj[/member]  as I think they haven't logged in since we started commenting on this thread.  (We normally answer quite quickly but for some reason this didn't come into my "New Posts" feed straight away, and it looks as though that was the case for others too.) 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

ryuj

  • Joined Sep 2022
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2022, 12:44:30 am »
Thank you for all your comments sharing your wisdom. Appreciate it.
The lambs are currently nearly 3 weeks old now, about 6.5kg. I will be castrating them this weekend hopefully. There will purely be pets and used to graze and not sold for meat.
Milk has been mixed accordingly to the packet, Milk mixture of 150mL which is 30g of milk powder + 120mL of water. I've been giving the right mixture from the start and haven't gotten the water part incorrectly, although it was confusing when I first read it. The milk replacement I am using is called 'Milligans Multi Milk Replacer', which was recommended to me by the owner who sold the lambs to us. We got them at 3 days of age, she has told me that the boys got separated from the mothers due to a fence and weren't able to return back. She has told me that they had colostrum from mum.

[member=159653]silkwoodzwartbles[/member] that you for letting me know regarding the drenching. I will get that done this weekend as well. I am trying out the salt!
[member=22672]Penninehillbilly[/member] Yes, I have been using gloves and been sterilizing the teats and bottles after each feed. I've posted some pictures of the gum issues, if you could identify what it is. I am pretty sure the gum issue has been there from the start, when we initially got them.
[member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member] the volume I am giving is about 10%~15% of their body weight, separated into 5~6 feeds per day. The yogurt recipe I got from the vet was 200g of yogurt to 4L of milk. I just reduced that volume proportional to what I need each day.
[member=3211]Anke[/member] Perhaps you are right and they are not orf? I couldn't find any information on anything else, so I presumed it was orf. The Sheppard I got the lambs from, just sells off any orphan lambs if they get any and gave us as much guidance as possible regarding feeding and other cares.

I've posted 3 pictures of what I presume this is orf. They have blisters like on their lips. One just bleed today while feeding from the bottle. And the gum issue that I've seen from the other lamb, which seems like it was there from when we first got them. There's also a blister on the top side of the gum of one lamb, which I wasn't able to a good picture of.

The bloating settles in the morning after taking a good break from its feeding. It's the worst at night time. I am considering switching to a whey-based milk concentrate, or trying actual sheep milk infant formula.
Thank you

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2022, 06:20:56 am »
2nd pic definitely looks like orf.

My calcs say 10% of 6.5kgs is 650ml, is that what they are each getting over the course of the day?  Are you still feeding 6 times a day?  So that would be just over 100ml per lamb per feed? 

I am not familiar with multi-milk replacers but have always used either ewe milk replacer (preferably one made from actual ewe's milk, which the Downland one is), or plain raw (unpasteurised, unhomogenised) milk from my own cow.  (Goats milk is also suitable, many say more suitable.)  With ewe milk replacers, one either feeds up to 1L or 1.5L per lamb per day (depending on the product, some say 1L a day and some 1.5L) for commercial-type lambs.  By 3 weeks I would be going down from 4 to 3 feeds a day.  I always stop each feed when the lamb has had enough, which I tell by looking down at its sides as it drinks.  Once the hollow in front of the hips has filled out and before they start to look convex, they've had enough, and I take the bottle away.  Some lambs do take the whole 1L or 1.5L over the course of the day, but some need less.

The farmer's story sounds off to me.  Farmers will be checking new families at least twice a day, so the lambs could not have been separated much longer than overnight, and their mother would have been delighted to have taken them back unless they'd been away *much* longer than that.  So either the farmer plays fast and loose with the truth, and / or is a poor shepherd and doesn't check their lambed ewes very often or very thoroughly.  If the farmer is truthful then it's the last, and a plausible story could be the ewe wasn't being a good mother and wasn't feeding them enough nor looking after them well, and hungry they wandered off desperate for food, getting themselves behind the fence.  With the mother not bothered and not looking for them, and not being an assiduous shepherd, the farmer didn't know which ewe to return them to, and/or realised that they were being neglected, so took them off for the bottle.

Either way, I think it has to be very possible they didn't have sufficient colostrum.

I would definitely get a proper ewe's milk for them, preferably one which is made from actual ewe's milk.  Introduce it slowly, adding just a little to the first couple of feeds then increasing proportions over a couple of days, to give their systems time to adapt to it.

How are you holding them when you feed?  By now they should be standing with the bottle held in front of them, held just above the horizontal to stop them drinking air but not held so high or so upright that their heads are lifted skywards.  Their heads should be just above the horizontal.  All this matters because the milk has to arrive in the correct stomach.  There is a groove down the front of the oesophagus which directs the milk into the abomasum, and in a healthy lamb with a fully developed milk reflex, this groove closes over as it settles to feed, so the milk cannot go anywhere else.  But with orphans they don't always develop that reflex, so it can sometimes not close over, so then getting the angles right helps ensure the milk goes into the correct stomach.  Symptoms of milk arriving in the wrong stomach can include gurgling, bloating, and scour. 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2022, 06:26:11 am »
Just looked up "Milligans Multi Milk Replacer".  Are you in New Zealand? 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

silkwoodzwartbles

  • Joined Apr 2016
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2022, 06:30:22 am »
That definitely looks like orf. SallyintNorth's advice is excellent and I would add that the lamb looks in pretty decent condition so give yourself a pat on the back.

I'm not sure whereabouts you are but if in the UK, castration by band shouldn't be done after 7 days old so it will likely be a vet job/burdizzo. Good luck  :thumbsup:

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2022, 07:25:24 am »
I think the op is in NZ too.


The only thing I would add is not necessarily needing to cocci drench at 3-4 weeks; it is time specific; there is no need to drench if they are not exposed to it yet. My pet lambs don’t need doing in the shed but a few weeks after they go outside, in which case they were 15 weeks old this year. Doing them at 3-4 weeks when they’ve not been challenged by cocci yet is a waste of drench. You can tell by a basic fec if cocci is an issue.

ryuj

  • Joined Sep 2022
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2022, 08:22:10 am »
Thank for your the advice [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member]
This is all very interesting stuff. Yes, I am based in New Zealand. I am quite surprised actually, considering I can't find a ewe's milk or goat milk on the market to feed the lambs. They are all cow's milk replacers, I presume they are modified or adjusted in some way to meet the requirement for lambs. There are sheep/goat formulas for human baby/infants however.
I've been feeding it less than 15% actually, approximately around 750mL per day. Perhaps I should reduce the quantity to 650mL per day like you said. One of my lamb doesn't have any kind of bloating issues even though they are fed the same. They are not twins, but come from different mothers.
I've been holding the bottle a bit higher than horizontal to prevent the ingesting air. But its been a lot higher than 'slightly' horizontal, I guess. I will be aware of this the next feed and see how it goes.
The guidelines on our milk replacers have recommended that I feed 350mL 4x times a day by day 16-21. I clearly haven't followed this as I thought this might be too much in one feed.

Perhaps as you said, the milk is not directed to the abomasum which is causing the bloat and scouring. Once the lamb is fed, it takes a long time before his belly goes back down to normal. At least 8 hours. I ve noticed it continues to bloat during the day with 4 hour feed intervals and reduced back in the morning. Or perhaps its not digesting the milk well.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Has been very helpful, it seems like everything I ve been trying wasn't having any effect, but I ll continue to work at it. Its interesting on the different regulations from different countries. The farmer lady has said to castrate them around 4 weeks so the testicles grow long enough to dangle down. It says in NZ regulation that its illegal to perform this after 6 months of age. Much different from 7 days!

Will think more about the drenching, thanks for the info [member=25072]twizzel[/member]

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2022, 09:40:24 am »
Cows milk replacer doesn’t have high enough fats in it for lambs, so I suspect that is part of the problem. Lambs on bottle feeding generally have 1 litre of milk a day here in the uk, split into 4 or 5 feeds at birth, but by 3 weeks they’d probably be on 3 feeds of 350ml. Ad lib feeding would have higher intakes, but spread out into small feeds like a lamb with its mother.

Penninehillbilly

  • Joined Sep 2011
  • West Yorks
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2022, 01:25:09 pm »
Sally, I was once telling a fellow goalkeeper (she'd had goats about 50yrs) about the Esophageal groove, she really didnt know what i was talking about, said i was crackers or imagining things. I suggested she looked it up. It's a very useful thing to know.
[/size]But I didn't know you had to lower the angle of the bottle, I'm still happy to learn things [/color] :)

silkwoodzwartbles

  • Joined Apr 2016
Re: New to rearing lambs and requiring help.
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2022, 01:55:11 pm »
not necessarily needing to cocci drench at 3-4 weeks; it is time specific; there is no need to drench if they are not exposed to it yet.

Cocci can and frequently does occur in indoor housed lambs:

https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/workspace/news-pdfs/12-03-Coccidiosis-in-Sheep%28E%2929032012122058.pdf

We lamb in January and if the weather is bad, the lambs can often spend a lot of time indoors during their first few weeks. We used to have the odd sudden loss at about 3-4 weeks old (some displayed scouring first, some did not) which our vet proposed was likely to be cocci and since we started cocci drenching at that age, those losses have ceased which suggests that it was indeed the cause.

 

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