[wildandwooly]

Hi all

One of my Shetland wethers has been losing condition. He's nearly 3 years old. FEC done by my vet and all ok and no obvious signs of anything wrong. Eating and drinking as normal and droppings normal. On decent pasture. No outward signs of anything when I sheared him. I'm a bit at my wits end now 
I've gone through all my sheep books and nothing is saying this is what is the problem....any of you sheep experts have any thoughts?
Thinking maybe trying to fatten him up a bit before the winter as it can be a wee harsh here and he'll need a bit of weight on him. All the others are fine and healthy looking.

 

[twizzel]

Check his teeth, bloods for mv and johnes, when did he last have a fluke drench?

[shep53]

All above plus bloods to check mins  ( cobalt  ) ?  Can you feed him individually in a bucket to give him a boost all animals are not equal

[Anke]

I would second a blood test for Johnes.

[SallyintNorth]

What breed? 

We had this twice with Zwartbles ewes, spent ££££ on investigations and meds, suspected Johnes disease even though bloods were negative (the test is not very accurate for a single sheep, unfortunately), couldn't get condition on them so sent them off.  Had the second one inspected by the abattoir vet, absolutely no internal indications of Johnes - nor anything else.  So never did work out what it had been.

[Anke]

(the test is not very accurate for a single sheep, unfortunately)

Why would it not be accurate on a single sheep?

[SallyintNorth]

(the test is not very accurate for a single sheep, unfortunately)

Why would it not be accurate on a single sheep?

It is designed for, and warranted for, pooled samples.  Ie., to be used for flock / herd testing.  It's too hit and miss on a sheep-by-sheep, poop-by-poop basis; the infective organisms can't be necessarily detected in every poop.  Same applies to blood tests; they give the best information if bloods are taken from several members of the flock or herd.  They do now have a more accurate test for individual animals, but it takes a very long (usually impractically long) time to process, like 4 months or something.  (If you think you have an animal infecting your ground with Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis, you don't want to let it keep doing that for 4 months while they do the specific test.  So it can useful for fact checking after the event.  But even then, a negative is a qualified negative, only a positive is definitive.)

[Anke]

I blood-test all my goats individually for Johne's every 6 months. If it is anything like CAE/MV then testing lab pools the individual samples (in groups of 4) and if the pooled test is above a certain level they will test individual samples.


If you submit ONE sample of an individual in your herd/flock, then that will be tested individually.


So a blood test for Johne's on an individual animal (if it is showing symptoms that may point to Johne's) is very useful. Turn-around time is a few days. A positive test does not necessarily mean that the animal is a) actively shedding, b) has ever shed in the past or c) will ever shed in the future. But most farmers (incl myself) will consider pts asap to reduce the risk to the herd as a whole. I would then test the whole flock and see if there has been any spread. Once you have one positive in your herd it is advised to re-test the whole herd at least annually, and it is very likely that there will be more animals later on going positive.


Faecal testing takes a lot longer, can also be done on individual cases, and shows up an animal actively shedding and therefore being a high risk to others in the pasture (currently and for a good time afterwards). Faecal testing also only gives a screenshot so to speak of what is going on that particular day, shedding is very erratic. I would never do a faecal only, and only ever after a positive blood test.


So in this case I think a blood test for Johne's on the individual is very useful. Bloods can also be used for MV, fluke, and also to just run some trace elements tests - cobalt and/or copper deficiency for example.

[SallyintNorth]

I am only reporting what our vet told us when we had a ewe with suspected Johnes, two years ago.  Maybe it's different for goats, maybe I got more information because we had only 1 suspected case, or because I asked about the efficacy of the tests as I'd come across them a few years previously, in cattle, and knew that they weren't at that time definitive in cattle at the individual level, and were even less definitive in sheep. 

[messyhoose]

i dont know if you have got to the bottom of your problem and do not know your location. Typically Scotland seems to be low in cobalt and we leave our few sheep cobalt and selenium licks to address that- farmers say with cobalt deficiency animals can "starve in the midst of plenty" cos they are not able to metabolise food efficiently.
I recently sheared my friends hoggets- one of those i commented was a lot thinner than the others (who were all fat) Sadly a week later she went sick and died from what we think was copper poisoning due to overfeeding concentrates (sadly the stress of shearing probably settting off the course of illness)
I would recommend a blood test- but do not expect it to be able to give you all the answers you seek. When my goats went off their feed in the winter i got them blood tested and it did not resolve anything- for the following 8 years they always lost weight over the winter (despite hand feeding and ad lib everything) but always put it all on again in the summer.
Liver fluke is hard to detect in FECs - you best find advice locally on the incidence in your area. My farm is prone to it despite the general area not being affected. The best test i find is to treat with Triclabendazole (it treats ALL stages) and see if sheep recovers after 48 hours- however they are usually ill (anorexic, have bottle jaw) and would not be thin unless the anorexia had been overlooked for sometime....
hope you get to the bottom of it. Nothing more frustrating than not being able to explain and treat some condition!

[wildandwooly]

Thanks all for your advice and help. I had wondered about Johnes disease but there are no other symptoms looking at my sheep's diseases etc books and the vet not at all sure that it is. However I'm  ot sure as I haven't found anything else it could be. Maybe a blood test is the way to go. No problem re teeth/feet/anything obvious. I do know however that sometimes you can get to the point of having a sheep put down before you find out what's wrong and not even then 
We're not an area for fluke here it's very very rare but I do move them regularly if the ground gets wetter and they do get their vaccinations every year.
Mine get sheep mix suitable for wethers a couple of times a week to give them a treat and to come to the bucket and have a salt lick during the year. I've done a soil sample so I do know the mineral content of the soil and there shouldn't be any problems. It really is a mystery but I was thinking of keeping that one separate for a couple of weeks and giving him some extra feed/nutritional/fat support. Has anyone used anything like this other than the usual Horselyx/Crystalyx? That just seems to be extra minerals but lots of sugar!

[Anke]

You can give them a mineral/vitamin drench, and I would thjink - if he has NOT got any copper from other sources - then one with added copper may be useful. That would mean he is nto eating extra sugars, which he may or may not need.


If he is amenable to other treats - Readigrass (but not Alfa A for boys) is also something I give to my goats over winter. Also will he eat branches - my Shetlands do! Willow, hazel and ash are just about still around, and it would be worth a try.

[wildandwooly]

Yes Anke a vitamin drench might be an idea. Def worth a try. I don't know Readigrass I'll look that up.
I have had some willow from a neighbour and yes my Shetlands do love it    I keep meaning to plant my own and must actually get around to doing it!
Thanks for the advice