[Richmond]

I have a total of 4 lambs this year (having lost one) - all boys. We have banded the older two. We had twins born Sunday who haven't been done yet. But now I'm wondering whether in fact they will need doing at all as once they are weaned they will be an all male group. We intend sending them off around the beginning of Nov. They are Wiltshire Horn x Soay.
I keep reading conflicting articles about banding v non banding - unbanded lambs grow bigger but can get more bolshy/rammy etc which I would like to avoid.
I suppose this is the year to "experiment" ie have two banded and two unbanded and see if there is any difference,  but don't want it to go horribly wrong!

[twizzel]

If I’m doubt, ring everything. Saves a lot of hassle in the long run! Especially if being half soay they aren’t ready to kill in November and you have to overwinter them.

[Fleecewife]

We have found especially with Soays that they don't do so well castrated. On the other hand they are bolshy little devils when entire.  It depends on the influence of the WH.  I think your experiment would be good to do - always best to find out what works for you.  Let us know how they turn out please.

[Richmond]

Ooh now I can't decide  - two different opinions already!

[Anke]

Early on in my sheepkeeping days... I was advised not to band my Shetland x texel lambs as they would grow faster that way... well it was 2012 and the rain NEVER stopped all summer. The grass was rubbish and the lambs did not grow, but when the hormones set in around October time there was fighting in the field and I had to move the girls quite far away, reducing the grazing for the boys even more. I then had to sell for peanuts at the store-lamb sale, and I am sure they went straight to the abattoir (as nobody wanted entire store lambs).


So if in doubt, always band. Unless space is a massive issue and you are trying to sell at a specific weight at a specific time - if you need them away by the autumn then they may just be a touch smaller or you can keep the smaller ones on through the winter.


Also no taint in the meat, as you may well get from entire boys by autumn, especially if they have been fighting already.

[landroverroy]

I don't normally band mine. They do grow better and faster. I've never had a problem of them fighting amongst each other, presumably because they've been brought up together. If they don't fatten by September, which they normally do if the grass is good, then I sell them fat around Feb/March when the price is excellent. By the way, once the ewes have been tupped, I put them all back together, so they are well fed, but nothing special. That way they keep on growing and have no difficulty getting fat by early the next year. They are also out of the way by lambing time in april.

[sabrina]

Only once did I not band and never again. Total nightmare.

[Richmond]

I think we're going with banding them. If we have a poor summer grass-wise then at least we have the option of putting them in with some of the others if need be without having to worry if they will fight or tup something they shouldn't

[Womble]

It's worth confessing to the mistake we made last year, in case that saves others.

We usually band all of our boys save for maybe a couple who might be good enough for breeding. However, last year there was only one tup lamb who looked as though he might be good enough to breed from. However, he ended up being really aggressive to both other sheep and to us, and even though he was great in every other way, we sent him for meat.


I can't be sure of cause and effect, but I suspect this was because he grew up as the only entire male on in the flock. Nobody ever put him in his place, so there he was - the alpha male. (Either that or he was just a jerk of course - it's hard to tell which!  ).

[tommytink]

A bit late to put my experience forward, but I never band my tup lambs and never have what I’d call a serious problem with fighting. They might mess around a bit but nothing serious. They go in with older tups though so think hierarchy plays a part. I would either band them all or not though, don’t do half and half.

[SallyintNorth]

Tup behaviour and the consequences can be quite breed specific.  As a rule of thumb, horned sheep and primitive types are likely to be more feisty than larger, polled, commercial types.

And an entire tup with full headgear, even of a small breed, can easily kill a polled tup that's much bigger than him (even if he wasn't really intending to), so that's another factor if you have more than one breed. 

After that, the two biggest factors against keeping them entire, to me, are (a) risk of escapes ^(*) and impregnating neighbours' ewes and ewe lambs - most will be pretty upset to have a Soay cross in amongst their girls!, and (b) lack of flexibility in managing fields and barns if the entires end up staying on into winter and beyond.  (Which can happen even with faster-growing sheep, let alone Soays and crossbreeds thereof.)

If you ring as nearly newborns, there is no appreciable setback.  Farmers who burdizzo later on say it will give them a two week check in growth.  Entires who have't gone by the time hormones start (as early as August with some breeds, usually later with purebred primitives) will probably stop growing until spring, so unless they are gone by the end of the summer you will have them for winter, or will have to send them off smaller.

With commercial types, feeding to get weights and top condition early to hit the best prices, unringed can be preferable as the wethers can tend to fat more than their entire brothers.  But unless the majority can be away at the optimum weight and condition before the hormones kick in, you end up losing on the later ones as they have to be sent off a bit light and sharp before they start to be a nuisance and / or stop growing, or have to keep them through winter so they end up costing more and literally eating the profits you made on their older brothers.

So a good tactic with that sort of sheep can be to only ring runts and triplets for the first week or two, then ring all the twins as well for the remainder of lambing, and by second cycle and beyond, ring everything.  That way, the entires *should* all be away early, usually before weaning, and you do get the benefit of the stronger, leaner, faster growth in those.  If one or two of them gets struck, or joint ill, or any of the 100 things that can give them a setback, then you will not have too large an issue or cost to keep those on a bit longer, or wouldn't lose a great deal if you sent them off a bit light. 

But with primitives and extensive systems, which I think would be the majority of smallholders, the benefits of keeping early, larger lambs entire probably do not outweigh the potential downsides in most cases.  IMO.


^(*)   And the risk of escapes is usually higher with little primitive sheep too    Soays and Manxes particularly are famous for scaling walls... 

[Richmond]

We did the same cross last year, as well as some having some pure Soay lambs. As the pure Soays take so long to grow we decided against putting the Soay ram back in with the Soay ewes in November and just put him to the Wiltshires. The WH/Soay cross made a good enough size for us last year and the boys were banded then (2 boys 3 girls in that group). We sent them off end Oct. We still have the pure Soay lambs (now hoggs I guess) and intend to send 2 of them off in another month or so. We are keeping the nicest girl. We are also going to change the Soay ram for something slightly larger - any suggestions for something that will go well with both WH and Soay ewes? I have Black Welsh Mountain in mind but not easy to find them round here.

[Fleecewife]

Hebridean for a good strong Primitive sire?

[SallyintNorth]

I don't know if it works this way round, but I found crossing Manx ewes could give me lambs bigger than either parent.  If it works that way round, a Manx might suit.

I did not personally rate Hebridean as a crossing tup.  Tiny testicles covered in wool, made banding a nightmare.    

Also, if you are using a bigger tup on smaller ewes, polled can be a better bet.  Some breeds (eg Exmoor Horn and Swaledale) have significant horn buds at birth, so a large single tup lamb can be a problem, as the horn buds make the head huge and unyielding. 

We did a lot of larger tups on various ewes, including Shetland and Shetland crosses here, and I now use only a Shetland tup on everything, and lamb mid April.  For me, the benefits far, far outweigh larger joints and getting more of the lambs away before winter.   I will not be persuaded to use bigger tups than ewes again ^(*), I would rather breed larger cross ewes and use a Shetland tup on everything.  Lambing outdoors onto decent grass in April suits me better, but a lot of folks are happy to lamb inside, so then you can lamb earlier and will get more of them away by November..

The benefits are trouble-free lambing (my #1 piece of kit is a pair of binoculars, and with a Shetland tup, I have had to intervene only once, on a summer lambing fat Icelandic cross, where the first lamb was coming backwards), lambs that are born running, know where the milk bar is and are very persistent in getting at it, so that all helps maiden ewes get used to it all without needing too much help.   And of course, nice fleeces and sheepskins. 

 ^(*)  Actually, it's not the size of the tup, it's the birthweight of his lambs.  Cheviots are big tups and their lambs will achieve large carcasses, but they are born tiny and grow slowly the first summer.  So they are fab for producing larger sheep from smaller ewes - but they won't be away very large before winter.  Farmers like them for the crossbred ewes for breeding and for the large carcasses to hit the New Year and early spring markets. 

[Fleecewife]

I don't know if it works this way round, but I found crossing Manx ewes could give me lambs bigger than either parent.  If it works that way round, a Manx might suit.

I did not personally rate Hebridean as a crossing tup.  Tiny testicles covered in wool, made banding a nightmare.    

Oh Sally no, are you confusing Hebs with Soay?  Now they have tiny tessies  and we know that for welfare reasons they might have to wait beyond the week to get the band on, but Hebs should have big b*****ks - they get checked often enough!
Also, Manx are horned too and virtually the same breed as Hebs, except Manx are a bit nastier (in my so humble opinion  )


ps I didn't put the asterixes in b*****ks - is that a bad word?