Author Topic: Castrating a ram  (Read 4319 times)

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Castrating a ram
« on: November 12, 2021, 11:33:48 am »
I’m currently trying to persuade three rams that they actually like each other and don’t want to crack each other’s heads open. One of these is a yearling who was meant to be kept as a pal for his Dad. He’s a bit of a charity case and someone quite rightly told me if I’m keeping him I should get him castrated. Question is if I get this done can I stick him in with the ewes straight away (once healed)?
When I had to pen him and a new hardcore ram lamb that obviously didn’t see him as boss it was only an overnight job, but I think these three together (2x yearlings and one older) is a different dynamic and going to take longer. The one I want to wether is obviously riddled with hormones as well and despite being outweighed and outpowered he’s still having a good go at being top.
Hopefully they’ll sort it out soon so I can let them in the field (and then I have the joy of bringing back the feisty ram lamb into the mix), but I just wondered if it’s a struggle to mix them whether it might be a solution to get on and have him done and take him out of the equation for the time being?

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2021, 02:17:38 pm »
I don't think you would be safe to put him in amongst the ewes straightaway.  As you are wondering, he will still have plenty of circulating hormones but also perhaps a few sperm still in the system too, depending on how he is castrated. In his head he will still be a full player too.
Actually, one older male and two shearlings should settle down quite easily together, except that they have already got some rivalry going.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

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tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2021, 03:26:55 pm »
I know if he was going to be a teaser he’d still have all his hormones, I wasn’t sure how long it took for it to wear off when his bits are removed completely. After x amount of time he should have no interest in acting rammy, should he?

The older ram and the one I want to castrate are father and son (Radnors), so they get on fine. The other yearling (a Badger) I bought in this year, and this is their first time of meeting as didn’t think it wise pre-tupping. They’ve been penned since Wednesday. When I tried to let them out yesterday they went to butting straight away. I had only given them a little bit of hay so was hoping they’d just be glad to get on grass but nope. The trouble is the Badger does a lot more damage as the horns he has are very thick at the base and he gets his head right down.

The lamb I bought in is also a Badger. He has been with both the yearling Badger, and the big Radnor, with no problems, but he split the yearling Radnor’s head open. As I said though after one night they got over it and could live together.

I had two homebred Badger yearlings I sold this year that were with the Radnors with no problems, although appreciate they grew up together so not quite the same. They were more definitely more spirited than the Radnors, but not knocking anyone’s block off! We were meant to be reducing our ram numbers this year but for one reason or another things haven’t gone to plan (although I guess that’s not unusual in this game!)


Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2021, 05:29:54 pm »
Sorry I can't speak for the breeds you keep.  We have bred our Hebrideans for gentleness and any which are not quiet get moved on.  We recently bought in a new tup and then suffered 4 unexplained deaths amongst the males.  It turned out to be this new tup, so we moved him on.  In his new situation he seems to be perfectly agreeable.   :fc: his 2 new replacements seem to be fitting in fine.
The reason we no longer keep a Soay tup is that they are naturally aggressive and just don't fit in with our system.


Even with our gentlemen, when they go back together after tupping they have a couple of good old head bashing sessions.  The longer the run up, the worst the clash.  See my avatar, a wonderful old tup no longer with us, to see the potential problems we have with horns.


I suggest you give your lot longer to settle then if they have still not worked out a pecking order, well, I would get rid of the Badger face.


Even males castrated at birth can sometimes keep a good bit of ramminess as adults, as we found with a Manx wether we bought in (for his fleece).  Evil little b******. The other tups killed him in the end and by then I didn't blame them. He was definitely properly castrated.  We have never had an adult male castrated so I don't know how 'wethery' they become.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2021, 05:53:11 pm »
I think even castrating him, he will still act like a ram to some extent. And it’s prime tupping season, they will take longer to settle; normally when I put my rams together after tupping they are in for a good week before I’m brave enough to think about put them out. I think either I’d move the ram on or kill it. No point making a pet out of it really.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2021, 10:48:40 pm »
We recently bought in a new tup and then suffered 4 unexplained deaths amongst the males.  It turned out to be this new tup, so we moved him on. 

How many sheep do you have Fleecewife? Intrigued as to how the deaths were unexplained but then attributed to the new tup? And if you moved him on how could you be sure he wouldn’t continue being a liability? (I’m not criticising, just genuinely curious).

I thought you had four-horned sheep - was it you I read once that had an incident where two got their horns tangled badly?

Radnor’s are ever so soft. I’ve read an equal amount of people that say they’ve had older rams done, ones that have worked for them and they couldn’t part with, and have had no problems. A bit like people, some rams are assholes and some aren’t. I’m hoping the Badger settles. I went to an auction for a yearling, had no success so not wanting to go home empty handed bought a lamb. But then still had to get a yearling for this year  ::) So bought him private. I have the choice of which to keep for next year and will take the other to the breed sale. Don’t think I’d have much success selling him now.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2021, 12:11:37 am »
The first one we gave careful nursing to for about a week after his injury, but he got ever worse. We took him, on our vet's advice, to the Animal Health lab.  They saw him still alive to see symptoms, then euthanised him and did a necropsy.  All they could find was chemical tracers of muscle damage so they assumed death by fighting. Two more over the following months had exactly the same symptoms (which looked like head injury to me) so we shot them, the fourth had his leg badly broken, also shot. The only tup seen to be aggressive was the new one, the others had been together for a few years, very friendly with each other. He has reportedly settled in well - different situation, different mix of other animals he's with.  Had he been vicious or dangerous to people we would not have sold him on - you will see in previous posts that is what I advise.  I think he simply didn't like the tups he was with and was otherwise an excellent tup.  He had come from a very extensive set-up (open hill) to our smaller set up (fenced) so perhaps he felt too confined.


Yes, we did once have that happen, where 2 shearling tups got their side horns tangled together.  Another big vet expense as they both had to have bleeding stopped and wounds protected.  One eventually died, the other we still have several years later, in fact he is our senior tup, now 3 horned.  The reason we seem to have quite so many tups around is that because we breed breeding stock, not specifically for meat, we keep our male lambs entire and keep them until 16 months.  Any which are suitable for breeding are either kept or sold at that point and the rest go for slaughter and end up in our freezer. Meanwhile, the hoggs become shearlings and are all very enthusiastic to prove their maleness.  For the older tups, it's like having a load of rambunctious teenagers just past puberty around.  We don't have room to keep them separated by age, and last year is the first we have had a big problem.


As you can imagine, if a 4 horned tup fights with a 2 horned tup then it's an unequal contest, but more dangerous to the 2 horned (we no longer have any 2 horned tups of any breed). When 4 horned tups fight, which ours don't often do, they tend to go for the sides, as deer do, so internal injuries can happen.  Also eyes can be lost.  That's why we breed for non-fighters. There is evidence that black multihorned tups from Britain were used by the Romans in the arena!


If you are wondering why we have several tups at once, it's for biodiversity in a very rare breed, Ancient Type Hebrideans, as opposed to Modern Type Hebs.  Our tups have only a handful of ewes each.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 12:23:13 am by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2021, 12:13:16 pm »
It sounds similar to our set up. We breed for breeding primarily and don’t castrate because of this either. From our first lot of lambs I kept all my Radnors and two Badgers. Two Radnors were sold as lambs, one as a yearling this year, the the other is my soon-to-be companion wether. The two Badgers were also sold as yearlings. I was told “no more boys” by the OH and haven’t kept any this year, which is good as ended up buying two in (although that wasn’t the plan).

We don’t have the room to separate tups either so really need them to get on. It is obviously a bigger adjustment integrating at an older age than when they’re lambs. Makes me think buying a lamb in a year ahead of using them is the solution but then they might not turn out as nice as you’d hoped.

It’s good your aggressive one went on and settled okay. Were they all the same breed? I wonder if the different temperament between our two breeds makes it difficult as well.


Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2021, 01:26:14 pm »

It’s good your aggressive one went on and settled okay. Were they all the same breed? I wonder if the different temperament between our two breeds makes it difficult as well.

I think you're correct there.  We used to keep tups of various breeds- Soay, Shetland, Jacob as well as the Hebrideans and they were never well settled.  Now we only keep Hebrideans they work out a natural order amongst themselves.  The boss prevents punch-ups by simply going to stand between 2 who are contemplating a fight.  This means they would have to hit him first and they're not going to do that, so peace is achieved gently.  I could watch sheep psychology in action for hours!   
This is definitely the wrong time of year to hope for tups new to each other to settle as friends.  We have just had to buy new insulated offsets to put up electric wires on either side of the fences between the tupping paddocks.  We are very late getting our tups in because of our involvement with COP26, but we don't want to be doing running repairs on the fences during the month the lads will be in with their ewes. At tupping time they are all rivals and the fences simply get in the way.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2021, 07:57:15 pm »
Yes it is a challenge! It’s always this time of year tup sales are on thought isn’t it? Our two breed show and sales are always mid/late September. I’d prefer to get one earlier and was trying with the Radnors but it didn’t pan out. The breeder I originally got my Badgers from said to me don’t bother trying to mix them before tupping which I get, and we didn’t do. He said put them together at Christmas but our field situation can’t really wait till then!
Touch wood they’ve made it out into the field now. Radnors got their heads down and ate straight away but the Badger is more agitated. He stood a few metres away looking at them and basing as if he was trying to goad them into something. The good thing is when he has approached them and pawed at them they’re pretty much ignoring him. He’s had a big change, coming here, then away to the girls, now back again.
I call our big Radnor the peacemaker! He used to do exactly that - go and stand between the yearlings or the lambs when they were squaring up. He was an excellent babysitter and I’ll be sorry to see him go. 

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2021, 01:29:21 am »
Actually probably the best time to buy a new tup is a month or two after tupping finishes.  People are thinking they will want to swap their tup for the following year, so you could perhaps pick one up privately.  That would give them nearly a year to get used to each other while they are in resting, chilling mode.  But of course make sure you're not getting one which is being got rid of because he didn't do his job.



"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2021, 08:52:25 am »
This was my plan for the big guy this past year. The closest I got to interest is people asking how much. They all want him for a bag of nuts but you have to be careful of people wanting them cheap to take them straight to the mart. He’s registered but logistically I couldn’t do the show and sale this year as I had planned to go to the other breed sale. Plus I was concerned about taking him and having to bring him home again with another ram in the trailer (as I needed a replacement for him which obvs didn’t work out either), although to be honest that’d prob have served as good time for a “meet and greet”! I’ll prob have to give it a go this year. It’s hard as no one seems to want older rams, they’re all too busy trying to flog their yearlings, and it’s a shame when you have a good ram that’s done a good job for you.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2021, 12:23:10 pm »
Do your breed societies have a website with a buy and sell page, or a facebook page? You can often find contacts that way, but building up a network and a name for yourself takes years.
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

tommytink

  • Joined Aug 2018
Re: Castrating a ram
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2021, 01:15:20 pm »
Yes they both do. Unfortunately one seems to focus completely on the day of show and sale and doesn’t like you advertising in the time running up to it (which is obviously the best time). The other is a bit more relaxed and still has a well supported s&s. It’s a shame really as it makes it difficult for people like me who don’t live near other breeders.

 

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