[northfifeduckling]

I bought some Robin mix instead of the usual wild bird seed as an occasional treat for the hens and ducks and now back home faintly remember an issue with mealworms but not what it was...
Any thoughts or wisdom here?

[doganjo]

Technically it's illegal to feed them to hens.  I bought mealworms alone from Chubby Mealworms, and was told on here that it was illegal to sell them for hens, but Chubby said they just sold them for wild birds.  It's not that clear on their website though

I think teh problem was there were contaminated ones coming in from the middle east

They are like 'speed' for birds though  so I still feed them but only occasionally as a treat

I won't be buying more when these run out

[northfifeduckling]

Bum, I knew there was something , wish I’d remembered in the store! I can pick them out, feed the wildies before chook/duck breakfast time and just let them have the sunflower seeds as a treat

[northfifeduckling]

Firstly, thank you for the tip to grow them, will check it out.
Secondly, the guilt tripping lecture about diseases and the law was a bit uncalled for. Words can be very triggering in these times, especially when thrown at you in print. The feed merchant I discussed this with (who is a farmer btw) didn’t mention it, if he had I wouldn’t have bought them and I’ve already replied before that I won’t ☝️.

[Fleecewife]

Chubby mealworms are very well reared to high standards and they also produce insects for human consumption. However, the law's the law so my poor hens go without.  As they are totally free range though they have a wide ranging diet which includes worms, flying insects, the occasional mouse and whatever else they can catch, as well as their pellets and grain.


I tried live mealworms once for the wild birds at nesting time as the dried ones are apparently too hard for nestlings, but the stink and the rummaging noise turned me right off    They're only beetle larvae but I prefer not to grow my own in that department 


There was some word on the jungle drums that making mealworms legal was being explored but perhaps that referred to those raised in the UK

[doganjo]

Ever thought of joining Greenpeace or Peta, or even becoming a politician?

[landroverroy]

To get  things in perspective - is it ok for hens to eat earthworms that haven't been passed for domestic poultry consumption?

[landroverroy]

Good answer SD. 

[Perris]

sardines are not an animal by-product. Where in the relevant legislation are they banned? and why?
They contain lots of good nutrition, including significant quantities of protein, calcium, and all the amino acids chickens need.
Meanwhile commercial operations can dump the cheapest by-products they can find at any given time into their feeds, and given the inability of anyone to identify those ingredients from the homogenized mass extruded, go unchallenged. We now recognized that highly processed foods are bad for us, so why should we believe that highly processed feed is good for our chickens, who are not (in most cases of people reading this site) being kept in food factory conditions, for the most productive and shortest time?

[Fleecewife]

I can't say it's ever entered my head to feed my hens with sardines    I believe sand eels have been fished to rarity by using as fishmeal for feed, in fact fifty years ago my father used to add that to the pigmeal mix. But sardines?

[doganjo]

So someone reading this is going to report us all for having at some point in time fed dried mealworms to our hens 

[landroverroy]

So someone reading this is going to report us all for having at some point in time fed dried mealworms to our hens 

Exactly.

[Perris]

I can't say it's ever entered my head to feed my hens with sardines    I believe sand eels have been fished to rarity by using as fishmeal for feed, in fact fifty years ago my father used to add that to the pigmeal mix. But sardines?

fishmeal is sometimes listed as an ingredient in poultry feeds; I don't think anyone specifically goes out to catch any sort of fish to feed chickens these days, so that probably means bycatch and bits of fish of no use for human consumption, so by-products of the human food chain.
Anyway, why not try it with your girls? Mine adore them - and no, the eggs do not smell fishy as a result 
If you want to know exactly what nutrition they (and a lot of other foods) provide, this is a useful site
https://tools.myfooddata.com/nutrition-facts/175139/100g/1 

[Perris]

sardines are not an animal by-product. Where in the relevant legislation are they banned? and why?
They contain lots of good nutrition, including significant quantities of protein, calcium, and all the amino acids chickens need.
Meanwhile commercial operations can dump the cheapest by-products they can find at any given time into their feeds, and given the inability of anyone to identify those ingredients from the homogenized mass extruded, go unchallenged. We now recognized that highly processed foods are bad for us, so why should we believe that highly processed feed is good for our chickens, who are not (in most cases of people reading this site) being kept in food factory conditions, for the most productive and shortest time?

I beg to differ with your assessment that they're not an animal by-product.  As for "where in the legislation are they banned?" the text under the heading "ABPs you cannot use" reads: "...You must never use:
- scraps and catering waste from any restaurant or commercial kitchen (including vegan kitchens)
- kitchen waste from non-vegan households
- raw meat and fish (including shellfish) or any ABPs containing them
- fully or partially cooked meat, fish and shellfish or any ABPs containing them
- any unprocessed egg and egg products, milk and milk products or any other unprocessed products of animal origin
- collagen and gelatine from ruminants or any products containing it
- unwanted food products, meant for humans, that are decomposing, mouldy, or toxic..."

As for "why?" - because of the risk of disease transfer and zoonosis which could lead to an epidemic or pandemic.

If by "commercial operations" you mean an "ABP-approved processing facility", then likely because they are acting within the requirements of the legislation and have demonstrated appropriate quality controls are in place to ensure the safety of the product that is output.

I don't disagree with you on the point about highly processed foods being bad for humans and potentially animals, but "hobby" keepers are far more likely to have close contact with their livestock, and often keep them for a longer period of time which in combination increases the risk of zoonosis.  Whilst a "new" disease/variant will take off quicker where there is a large confined population, the risk of new zoonotic variants occurring is higher where there is close contact between different species.  For humans the highest risks are with pigs and chickens (almost all significant diseases that originated via zoonosis made the jump to humans through these 2 species).

The definition of animal by products is fundamental and crucial here, and they are defined on this govt page
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animal-by-product-categories-site-approval-hygiene-and-disposal
Line 1: "ABPs are animal carcasses, parts of animals, or other materials which come from animals but are not meant for humans to eat."
A tin of sardines for sale in a supermarket is meant for humans to eat and therefore is not an abp.
Your points about animal by product producing/using facilities are all fine, except they came in in response to bse, because commercial feed manufacturers were using sheep brain in feed for other mammals. The risks of zoonotic disease transfer from fish to poultry are miniscule, hence the regs distinguishing fishmeal as ok for ruminants etc.

[Perris]

The definition of ABP is crystal clear, and a tin of sardines is not magically transformed into an animal by product by the act of opening it to feed the hens there and then. So we will have to agree to disagree about this.
I suggest anyone interested in the topic read the webpage of govt guidance for themselves,  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animal-by-product-categories-site-approval-hygiene-and-disposal