Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Ewe without any paperwork  (Read 4176 times)

2021adrt

  • Joined Mar 2021
Ewe without any paperwork
« on: March 19, 2021, 09:09:26 pm »
I donít want to get into the backstory as itís been a nightmare time prior to writing this post. And I really donít need you should have done this or that. Whatís done is done and I need to know how to fix it.

I knew of some animals Iíd known well that were being mistreated/neglected/abandoned.

Helped horse welfare charity get access to the the horse. Theyíve dealt with that now.

I took the dog on with me.

The plan was to send the remaining animal, a solo ewe, to my fathers small holding. He has the correct licensing and could tag her apparently.

We got all three animals out of the situation they were in at the same time. There was no room to make provisions in the short space of time we had.

- - - -

The plan for my father to take on the sheep has not materialised as he is going through great health issues and the ewe cannot go there. It is currently staying with a friends horse as a companion until I sort this.

The ewe was bought by someone a year ago with no paperwork as an orphan, treated as a pet, lived with a horse prior. (I know I know we all say).
It was rescued with the horse and dog from a tricky situation as described above.

What I need advise on is how to make this sheep legal and give it a decent go at life. Iím fond of it. From my knowledge of it never been sick. Seems to be very healthy although a little over weight.

How can I get it into a legal situation? Without getting myself into trouble.

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Dumfries & Galloway
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 01:51:51 pm »
Can the RSPCA not take  it and re-home it ,then you would have no worries  or a city farm /city zoo etc .  You could find a smallholding that is willing to take it maybe via vet and they could just do what your father was going to do , take it and tag with their own tag , this situation happens occasionally with stray sheep with no tags, so no one can trace them . One sheep is of no importance to  the great gov system

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2021, 02:06:03 pm »
One of the rescue charities?  I know of this one linky, I am sure there are others, possibly nearer to you.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2021, 03:42:13 pm »
Well, you have clearly done a good thing with rescuing the ewe from a nasty and neglectful situation, also the horse and dog  :thumbsup:
I take it that the ewe has no ear tag?  Sheep don't have passports, papers or similar, just an ear tag and a movement document (a piece of paper or it's done online), so what you are needing is somewhere with a sheep CPH number who can tag the animal, and write in her record where she came from originally (just 'found' would probably do  :D )  I appreciate that your father is having health issues but perhaps you could tag the sheep using one of his tags and put her through his books?  Then you would still have to find a home for her, but at least she would have a tag (red tag).
You do seem to be very worried that you would be 'in trouble', but I don't see why (without of course knowing the details which we absolutely don't need to know).  As someone else has said, sheep go missing and are found wandering sometimes - all you have done is to rescue and care for a sheep which had been abandoned. You know your back story, but no-one else has to, so just start afresh  :sunshine:
If you don't know any other smallholders, then a charity would usually help, or at least give you advice on where to start looking for the right place.


Is the ewe with you at the moment?  When she joins a flock, the new owners will need to quarantine her for the health of their flock, as would your father had he been able to take her.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 03:45:38 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

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harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2021, 03:43:42 pm »
Is the person with the horse able to keep her? They already seem to be friends. In which case they apply for a CHP number and a flock number (explain to animal health that this sheep just arrived and has no tag but that they can look after it) then get a tag.


If they can't keep it then perhaps if you say where you are someone here could rehome her?


Is it sorted that the previous keeper will not try to take back the animal?


Well done for dealing with this and taking on the dog.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 10:24:13 pm »
Not sure where this story is taking place, but I think the rule in England is that red tags cannot leave the holding, except straight to slaughter.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2021, 11:33:32 pm »
Not sure where this story is taking place, but I think the rule in England is that red tags cannot leave the holding, except straight to slaughter.

Oh I see well that puts the kibosh on my idea  ;D

The fact is that because we can't know the whole tale, so we can't give truly accurate advice.  Up here, Animal Health are really nice and helpful, and surely the first priority is the animal's welfare, which the OP is trying to ensure.  I don't see why there could be trouble, so to me AH would be the appropriate first port of call.  As the horse has been sorted, so surely the sheep situation will be fine too but am I being naive here?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 11:35:11 pm by Fleecewife »
"Let's not talk about what we can do, but do what we can"

There is NO planet B - what are YOU doing to save our home?

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 11:47:01 pm »
Not sure where this story is taking place, but I think the rule in England is that red tags cannot leave the holding, except straight to slaughter.

OK, in that case move her to wherever she's going to end up staying, and THEN give her a pair of red tags for that holding. If it is ever queried (it won't be), just say oops, sorry.

For the OP - we haven't actually explained what red tags are. So there are three different types of tag - batch slaughter tag (ignore this - not relevant), "breeding" tags (the sheep wears a pair of them - one has an EID chip and one is just printed with a number), and red "replacement" tags, which are basically the same as breeding tags, but are intended for sheep which have lost their original tags somehow.

Because this ewe was not born on the holding where she'll end up, it wouldn't be technically correct to give her breeding tags from that holding. Equally you clearly can't give her breeding tags from the holding she came from. So I think that leaves the only option as a set of red tags, and most sensibly with the flock details of her 'forever home'. Well, that's what I'd do, anyway.
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
    • Facebook
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2021, 06:18:27 am »
Not sure where this story is taking place, but I think the rule in England is that red tags cannot leave the holding, except straight to slaughter.

Is this true?  .......  I dont think it is .... or what would be the point of red EID tags?
Linda

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twizzel

  • Joined Apr 2012
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2021, 07:32:56 am »
Red tags just mean the flock number printed on the tag is not the flock of birth. I donít think they restrict the animal to slaughter movements only.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2021, 10:31:06 am »
Not sure where this story is taking place, but I think the rule in England is that red tags cannot leave the holding, except straight to slaughter.

Is this true?  .......  I dont think it is .... or what would be the point of red EID tags?

So that a sheep, not born on your holding, who has lost both original tags, can be retagged and be legal.

But you are supposed to know and record the origin of the sheep if not its original number.  (I think you can get replacement tags if you know its original details?  Or is that only for sheep bred on your own holding?  I am not as up to speed with the regs these days, as we breed very few and only for ourselves.)

The law does not allow for tagging a sheep of unknown origin, and if you think about it, that makes sense, as traceability has been lost.

Having said all of which, in the case of a rescue sheep not intended for human consumption, I would personally use red tags at the holding where she ends up.  (Edited to add, plus it sounds like the history is known, so could be recorded in the destination holding's flock register.)

Edited to add that the movement of an untagged sheep cannot be done legally, as fas as I can see...  Whether there is a way of identifying a sheep as a pet and not for consumption which could be used in such cases, I don't know.  And the people who would know are Animal Health (but there is a risk in talking to them if there is no legal way to do this...) and charities which rescue sheep.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 10:35:20 am by SallyintNorth »
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2021, 10:52:02 am »
(I think you can get replacement tags if you know its original details?  Or is that only for sheep bred on your own holding?  I am not as up to speed with the regs these days, as we breed very few and only for ourselves.)


We have pedigree sheep which, according to breed society rules, must be re-tagged with a replica (copy) breeding tag if they lose one. As a result, I have ordered copy tags a few times for ewes not born on our holding and have never had any problems getting them.
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

PipKelpy

  • Joined Mar 2019
  • North Shropshire
  • Dreamer with Mary, (cow) and sheep.
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2021, 11:01:06 am »
I don't see a problem. When EID tags came into force I asked what happens if sheep loses non tag. "Cut out EID and insert new tags" was official reply off Defra, cos sheep don't have passports. How many of us have taken on cade lambs to bottle and had several extra twin/triplet births registered on records?

Regarding to parting with it at very end, have it shot on premises and disposed of, therefore no food chain.

Halter train the cattle to keep them quiet but watch your back when they come a'bulling! Give them all names even those you plan to eat. Always be calm. Most importantly, invest in wellies with steel toe caps and be prepared for the clever cow who knows where the toe caps end!!

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2021, 12:04:53 pm »
I don't see a problem. When EID tags came into force I asked what happens if sheep loses non tag. "Cut out EID and insert new tags" was official reply off Defra, cos sheep don't have passports. How many of us have taken on cade lambs to bottle and had several extra twin/triplet births registered on records?

Regarding to parting with it at very end, have it shot on premises and disposed of, therefore no food chain.


Agreed !
Sometimes common sense has to prevail. It is the animal that is important here. I know of a few people that have had a couple of pet lambs and kept them till they died. No tags. But hardly a hanging offence. To me it is the spirit of the law that is important and the well being of the animal, rather than keeping the poor animal in limbo.
My answer to 2021adrt would be - find it a good home and ask yourself - what's  the worst that can happen? I'm sure a couple of my animals have lost tags. They will never leave my premises alive, (yes I'm well aware of the rules so don't start quoting them! ) but does it really matter?
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Ewe without any paperwork
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2021, 12:36:41 pm »
The OP asked how to make it legal so I think it is entirely appropriate to quote the rules and I make no apology  for so doing.

If you read what I wrote you will see that I made no comment or judgement as to whether or not the OP should follow said rules.  Indeed, I had previously given my own view as what I would do, which is more or less what PipKelpy said.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

 

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