[SallyintNorth]

So, with Hillie dying, we have the two new heifers now both calved and in training.  Lulu's calf was dead, and she is settling into being milked pretty well, I think (it's not 3 weeks yet); Tulip's calf is alive though not ultra-lively, and she is still pretty stampy most of the time we milk her, but an angel sometimes! It's less than a week in, though, and Lulu was still wearing us out at this stage... lol

Anyway, the others on the team here are starting to question whether a milking machine is a good idea, and I don't want to give them only my own, very biased views.  Plus, there are questions to which I don't know the answers.

So, here follows what I have written so far, and after the quoted email, I summarise the main questions.  Please feel free to comment on anything I have written, not just the specific questions.

Remember, the cows are still learning at the moment; it hasn't even been three weeks for Lulu yet, and Tulip is still in her first week.  I did Flare's early training on my own, milking her every day for the first 6 weeks, so I guess no-one else has the experience of getting a heifer used to her new routine.  I think Lulu is doing brilliantly

It's great to hear you managed to do a good stretch two-handed today; I have been doing a lot 2-handed, but still taking a long time as I haven't got to the point where I trust her enough yet to not kick at flies, so I am still saving the milk every 1/3L or so, which makes it all take such a lot longer!

Talking of kicking up at the flies : they would do this if they were on a milking machine too, which would keep knocking the cluster off, so then we would be (a) throwing away (well, to the pigs) all the milk we've got up to that point, (b) having to do the rest of the milking that day by hand (or just stop and clean out the cluster thoroughly and give all that day's milk to the pigs) and (c) having to do an extra-thorough clean of all the equipment after milking to be sure we don't contaminate the cows or us.

So for me, I am not sure whether a milking machine would buy us very much this early on, or whether it might even be more work while they are learning.  (But of course, if it stays on then it will milk them out more quickly than we do by hand, so there is less time for the flies to annoy them...  We could ask <redacted> what he does while training; he may have techniques for restraint that are nicer than anti-kick-bars and hobbles!  Or maybe he just gives them so much feed while they are learning that they're milked out before they realise it!  lol.  And he will, no doubt, have much more effective fly control than we do...)

If flies is the biggest issue causing fidgeting, we can look at using insecticides in the parlour, which is what most if not all non-organic farms do.  We have exhausted the planet-friendly options that I know about.  (Citronella, fleabane, neem oil.  Plus the girls have had a SpotOn treatment.) 

The only other thing we could (relatively) easily do better is keep the parlour more clean; make sure we leave absolutely no dung, old milk or old feed lying around in there, near the entrance, or in the feedstore at all. 

On cleaning the parlour, we have a water supply in there so can easily get that operational and do a hose-down after milking each day - although as there is often very little water pressure mid-morning, I am not sure how much more effective than the "sluicing with a bucket-from-the-trough" that will be :/  But a more thorough fork-out, wash-and-brush-down every day would make quite a difference. 

With Lulu losing her calf, we have no option but to milk her out every day this lactation, but hopefully it will be no different to milking Hillie (or even faster) once she is settled.   <redacted> and I are both of the opinion that, with a trained cow and experienced milkers, the overall time the job takes is much the same for [/q][/li]
[/list]one cow : more cleaning out the equipment with less time actually milking, versus more time hands-on milking and very little cleaning to do.  The time benefit comes with two or more cows, as the cleaning is the same however many cows there are.

We might decide to not milk Tulip every day once she's fully trained, as she has a calf to keep her comfortable.  We stopped milking Flare completely for a while, and she took to it again no bother when we sent Luther off, so we might even decide to not milk Tulip at all over the winter - but I think it would be better to establish that we share the milk with the calf, as this will be our normal routine with both of them in years (hopefully most of them!) where they both have calves, and we don't want to end up with a cow that holds all her milk back for the calf.

So, once everyone is trained, we might find that the time saving of a milking machine is not very much overall, as we might mostly be milking only one cow anyway most days.

However, if we think we might want to progress getting a milking machine, these are some of the things we would need to think about :

1.  We would need to address disposal of hypochlorite : it's hazardous waste.  I have asked Simon what they do at Monkton Wyld, and this was his answer.  "We release about 200 litres of liquid every week from our hypochlorite tank (i.e. 400 grams Deosan hypochlorite) into our reed bed with no visible affect on its profuse vegetation.  I imagine there is less  chlorine running into the reed bed than there would be if we  were on mains  tap water. "

Now, they handmilk there, so that 200L is from washing all the buckets, jugs, cheesemaking equipment etc, not from a daily wash-through of a milking machine.  I will need to find out what volumes and weights of hypochlorite we would be producing washing out a milking machine every day.

And of course we are on mains water here, so are already putting some chlorine through our sewage system. We would need <redacted> to check if the dairy output can go into the sewage system, or would need to be collected and "bussed" straight to the reed bed, or could not go to either of these places.

We might get away with using Capriclense 2 out of 3 days and hypochlorite 2 or 3 times a week, but there would still be quite a bit of hypochlorite to dispose of.  (And organic dairies do use hypochlorite; Monkton Wyld is organic and I have used hypochlorite in other dairies that were Soil Association registered too.)

2.  We would need a cold water supply that is going to reliably deliver more than just a trickle after milking.  (I have been putting jugs of cold water on the sink before milking as there were so many days when the tap had nothing or almost nothing after milking.)

With a milking machine, it must be washed out as soon as we finish milking, we would have to use hypochlorite, and it uses gallons of water every time. 

3.  We would still need a few people who can hand milk too.  Or a generator, or both.  So that we can manage the cows when the electricity is off or the machine is broken.

4.  So, as well as buying the machine (they cost around £1,000 - and that's for one that runs off mains electric; you can get portable ones that can run off a battery or generator, I think, which we might decide we want to explore), we would need to plan and cost the implementation of the reliable cold water supply and the collection and disposal of the hypochlorite-laden water and the rinse water.   And perhaps a generator too, for when the electric is off? 

5.  Are we sure we are happy (a) with using all those chemicals, and (b) that we would all do it reliably and effectively enough?  If we don't, we could end up poisoning ourselves and possibly causing the cows mastitis...  I will see if I can find Christine Page (Smiling Tree Farm)'s HCAAP procedures for cleaning the milking machine, so you can see the sort of thing we would need to do.


That all sounds very negative, and it's no secret that I am not a fan of milking machines that turn the job into a semi-industrial, noisy process where you spend more time cleaning and less time with the cows.  But if it's the right thing for Trelay then I wouldn't block it.  But (a) let's make sure we make an informed choice we don't regret, and (b) let's not knee-jerk when we are in a situation (training a new heifer) that we will hopefully not be in more than once every 8-10 years! - and hopefully never again with two newbie cows and no experienced cow to show them the ropes!  (Let alone that we are also getting a few newer members of the team into hand-milking at the same time!)

Questions

• fly control in the parlour : insecticides, other tactics
• cleaning the machine : does it have to be hypochlorite?  Or is there an effective, but more eco-friendly alternative?  (I have assumed not, as I know that organic dairies use hypochlorite too, and Christine Page said she had to add hypochlorite to her regime (from using only Capriclense) after she started measuring her bacterial contamination!)
• how much water does it take to clean the machine?  And to rinse it? 
• Can you reuse the hypochlorite solution? Is it sensible to do so?  How many times? 
• Is the first rinse regarded as contaminated?
• how do you dispose of the hypochlorite?
• Gibson machine (and similar) : how portable?  can they be run in the field off a battery or do they need a mains connection?  Other machines to consider?
• what do you do when the cow knocks the cluster off?  Is the whole batch, and the cluster and all the piping, then contaminated and all equipment then needs thoroughly washing out again before proceeding?
• am I overstating the number of times a milking machine would get kicked off by a novice heifer (and by inexperienced milkers!) while she (and they!) learn? And are they quicker getting used to a machine than hand-milking (if anyone can compare! It's hard to identify and quantify all the factors here : we have new members learning to milk as well as experienced hands, plus too many flies, as is clear from what I have written!)

[Rosemary]

Generally not had a problem with flies; Red Top up outside; cows done with Spotinor. I do have an insectocutor but haven't used it.
I use Capriclense; cold water rinse 2 x 10litres (the second rinse if used to wet the beet pulp for the following day); Capriclense in hot water 82C; leave that in until the next day; hot water 82C rinse.
First rinse and Capriclanse I pour out on the ground and let it filter away. Not had any problem with flies or anything.
Our Gibson machine is on wheels; great on flattish land, hard work along out Type 1 track. THe top of the dump bucket tends to shake loose too. TG will provide a rubber dump bucket lid that stays on tight - especially important once there's milk in the tank!!!! Don't knwo about battery - we use the mains.

We milk inside on rubber mats that are pretty clean; tbh the cows rarely kick off the machine but even if they do, it's awful bad luck if the top of the cluster gets dirty. THe design means that if it falls, the sooky bit doesn't touch the ground.

I like the machine - it's more regular than a lot of folk hand milking. It's far easier on the cow than a calf, that's for sure. Even if my cows' udders are abit chewed, generally they don't mind having the machine put on.
Hope thsi helps.

[SallyintNorth]

Very helpful, thanks Rosemary 

[Anke]

You don't need a water supply in the milking shed, a couple of buckets for cleaning out the machine is all you need. We take hot water from the house down in buckets (wiht lids), but do have a cold water (mains) tap in there (as well as a kettle if needed). You can then also use the water from the churn for cleaning/sluicing the floor.

If you have a power supply to the milking shed, then go for mains electric only and hand-milk when power cuts. Portable machines are great, ours came from these people and it is used EVERY day since around 2011...https://www.milkingmachines.co.uk/portable/.

With a machine, you just save so much time, washing out takes less than 2 minutes twice a day, then a more thorough cleaning once a week or so.

[Buttermilk]

I would go machine every time.  If set up with the correct vacuum and pulsation rate they are kinder on the cow than different people and calves.  Milking is quicker with a natural let down period and not drawn out and lots of udder bumping needed.  As the suction ceases when kicked off no crap is sucked into the pipes and milk so no wasteage, we cold rinsed the cluster and just put back on.  There was no problem with bug counts, if the cluster landed in a pile poo it might need a quick brush as well as a rinse.

The first bit of washing is a cold water rinse which is classed as contaminated.  From our small 40 cow commercial herd the wash water went down a drain and into a soakaway with never a problem.

Once you are in a routine you will find milking and washing up will be quicker than when hand milking and washing the buckets.

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks very much everyone, much food for thought.

Milking is quicker with a natural let down period and not drawn out and lots of udder bumping needed. 

We don't do any udder bumping, it's all very gentle and relaxed.  People who "maul" the teats are not invited to milk with us a second time .   The cows learn to drop the milk as we clean the udder, and in general, unless something is upsetting them, the milk then flows really well for as long as it takes to hand milk them out.  No question it is longer than a machine would take, though, and if it's more than around 4L and you are milking on your own (we milk two milkers together sometimes), you are certainly aware of the passage of time!  (But when would I get to listen to my podcasts...?  ). The cows normally stand quietly, contentedly chewing the cud, the while, although I must admit that when Hillie was giving over 11L a day, she would be a little bit fidgety by the end sometimes.

[SallyintNorth]

We deliberated over whether to get two Shetlands or these two Northern Dairy Shorthorn crosses, and decided that with two Shetlands we would probably have to milk both each day to get the amount of milk that we want, whereas with the slightly more productive (but not super high-performance; we knew we didn't want two pure Jerseys) NDSx's, we could probably get away with milking just one or other some of the time if we wanted to, once the calves were over about 6 weeks old anyway.  Of course Lulu losing her calf has thrown all the plans up in the air somewhat...  .

Lulu (no calf) is currently giving 8L a day (they get no additional feed, just a handful of grass pellets as a treat when they come into the parlour, and some haylage if they want it). The weather is lousy but they have plenty of grass under their feet and shelter available. 

Tulip is just settling into a routine now, with the calf just a week old, and today I got 4L mainly out of the back teats, just a little from the one front one I milked.  (We always leave one quarter for the calf, so the cow learns that she doesn't need to hold back, there will be milk for the calf.). If they stick at that level (which I suspect they will as we are past the most nutritious grass time of year now), we will be able to milk just Lulu if we want, once Merlin (the calf) is able to drink at least a gallon a day and keep his mum comfortable, and we are happy that Tulip is fully trained.