[RJH]

About 12 or 13 years ago our neighbours had a few sheep, pigs, chickens which they kept for a year or two. We guess they may have obtained a permanent CPH number. They recently started borrowing some sheep from a local livestock owner and are now claiming to the planning authorities that they have a smallholding (presumably showing the old CPH number and Defra livestock movements) whereas they want the sheds for domestic storage on Green Belt land. Are they allowed to keep a CPH number forever even though they own no sheep? (If not, this is a basic flaw perhaps used to trick council planners.)

[SallyintNorth]

There's an annual return, completed by all sheep and goat farmers, listing all the sheep they own and where (what holding) they are on.  Also, all the movements record the owner / keeper as well as the holding.  So the fact that they haven't owned their own sheep would come to light - if the authorities  look for it. 

[harmony]

Yes they will still have their CPH.

[collies]

I think if they don't already have these sheds on their land they would need planning permission if the land is under 5 hectares. Think it would depend on size of sheds they want to put up, if they're not already up, whether they are deemed "temporary structures"

[RJH]

SallyIntNorth thank you. You said " So the fact that they haven't owned their own sheep would come to light - if the authorities  look for it." By come to light do you mean should not still be using a CPH number having sold their animals (even they sometimes borrow someone's sheep) ? Who is "the authority" and should they be notified and how is that done?

Harmony thank you. You said they will still have their CPH number. Should they keep it forever then regardless of owning no sheep?

 Many thanks

[harmony]

SallyIntNorth thank you. You said " So the fact that they haven't owned their own sheep would come to light - if the authorities  look for it." By come to light do you mean should not still be using a CPH number having sold their animals (even they sometimes borrow someone's sheep) ? Who is "the authority" and should they be notified and how is that done?

Harmony thank you. You said they will still have their CPH number. Should they keep it forever then regardless of owning no sheep?

 Many thanks

Yes, you don't give back your holding number because you haven't currently got stock. The grazier will move those animals on a licence (or should) and will need a CPH for the destination.


If you feel the planning application is based on untruths then you should write to the planning authority with your concerns and highlight that the sheep are grazing not owned by the applicant.


I wouldn't assume anything "comes to light". People base applications on untruths all the time.

[RJH]

Thank you very much yet again Harmony. If a CPH number is being used to pretend that there is a small holding it seems  reasonable to tell the authority who CPH numbers that it is being used for the wrong purposes. (so that the integrity of the CPH system can be maintained). Who are those authorities please as forgive me I don't know anything about that system?

[SallyintNorth]

If there are sheep on the land then the CPH will be being used, quite properly, for the movements on and off that land.  Having a CPH does not mean the holder of the CPH owns sheep, nor does it necessarily mean they control the land.   (You can hold a CPH for land that someone else owns.)

Sorry, I know it is complex.  The best thing, I think, would be to keep it simple and say that the owner of the land appears to be letting the grazing, does not own their own sheep, and therefore cannot be said to be farming it themselves.