[GBov]

Having only ever had a cow for a grand total of an hour I know very little about them, other than I want some, that is.

But having worked for years in my younger days with horses I remember how snappy the kids horses and ponies would get as soon as they started getting regular treats but all the cow training threads recommend treats for taming and training.

So do cows not get snappy for treats like horses and ponies?

[Buttermilk]

They do not nip like horses but get very pushy with their heads.

[GBov]

They do not nip like horses but get very pushy with their heads.

Ah, then how does one balance training with treats with not having pushy headed cows?  Or does one even need treats to handle them?

Eventually, I want a Jersey for milk - only been saying that for 20 years now - and they are easier to work with than, say, a Dexter, yes?

[SallyintNorth]

Yes Jerseys are a gazillion percent easier to work with than Dexters.

All cattle like routine, but there is a fundamental difference in temperament between a beef breed and a dairy breed.  A suckler cow has to look after her calf for 8-9 months, generally living out and with little human interaction. So she will make some of her own decisions in order to protect her calf, and won’t always acquiesce to a human’s requests. A dairy cow has been bred for generations to be biddable and to not look after her own calf (although they still have plenty of maternal instinct if they’re allowed to keep their calves), to have daily interaction with the humans who care for her, so they generally go where they are asked.

Yes cows can get pushy if you give them treats.  They don’t bite but they weigh a lot and it’s better to not have them pushing at you.  Much better to work with their natural preference for routine.  Do things in a very consistent way, and mostly, after three or four times, they’ll just do it.  They’ll respond to tone of voice, so get them used to being praised, then you can reinforce “yes, that’s right” when you’re showing them something new.

Of course sometimes you want them to go away from good grass, so that’s a time you might use a few grass pellets to bribe them.  Easiest is to put the pellets in a trug where you want the cows to be and open the gate .  If you have no choice but to lead them with a bucket of pellets, my technique is to use a bucket with a lid, show the cow that the pellets are in there but don’t let her get her head in, put the lid on and rattle it if she needs encouragement.  Never ever let her be pushy, turn away and make a gruff noise if she tries.  They soon learn.

[Anke]

Or you could just get goats.... easier to handle, a lot less expensive in set up costs (smaller trailer, no 4x4 needed to tow, don't need acres of grazing - indeed can be kept in a back garden), provide milk for at least two years without needing to kid in between, give manageable amounts of milk, you can easily home kill the unwanted male offspring etc etc etc...

[SallyintNorth]

Are you saying goats don’t get butty, Anke?    

There are of course pros and cons to each.

I haven’t kept goats myself but from the stories I’ve heard I’m not sure I’d agree that goats are easier to handle!  Escape artists, aren’t they?   

Cattle can also go two years between calves.  Dairy types will keep on lactating until you dry them off, or some start to dry themselves off when they’re around two months off calving.

AI readily available for cattle, much easier and more biosecure than taking nannies to a billy.

If you have sheep as well, cattle and sheep works well together, graze sheep after cattle clears worms form both and keeps grassland in good heart, whereas I think most people advise to keep goats and sheep separate or there can be issues with worm control.

Both will need shelter from rain in winter, goats need shelter year round I think?   Whereas cattle will be happy with natural shelter through summer (but do need some cover from sun and rain.).   Cattle shelter is of course a bigger shelter than one suitable for goats.

You’ll need the use of a crush or similar for TB tests for cattle.  We are in an annual testing area, but luckily there’s a local beef farmer with a mobile crush who is happy for us all to borrow it when it’s our turn, and another local farmer with cattle and a tractor, who’s happy to move it around for us all.

Because we use AI, we don’t need a trailer for our cattle except for taking stirks to the abattoir, when we pay the butcher to collect.  They charge us less than £30 per trip.  So no 4x4 needed and no cattle trailer.

Yes cattle need at least a couple of acres per head - and it’s not kind to have only 1 cow, 2 cows plus calves is the bare minimum (3 would be better), so the acres do add up.  We calve indoors in winter and send the calves off as the cattle come in for the next winter, so the acreage needed for youngstock is minimal, and we don’t need winter forage for youngstock.

Deadweights of our last two bullocks :

Froggy, 1 year old Red Devon x Jersey, 224kgs deadweight.
Luther, 10 months old Angus x (Red Devon x Jersey), 244kgs deadweight.

The meat is amazing.    Surplus, if any, would be very easy to sell.

Our cows rear their own calves.  If we need more milk we wean the calves at not less than 5 months old, but both the above calves were on their mothers to 10 months old.

[Anke]

My goats are not butty, they come to call and can be lead on a lead - my daughter has handled them from 7 years old.
Mine are not escape artists either - top wire mains electric fence is all you need.

AI - becoming more widely available, I have had three done this year and all three held (scanned with twins).
Also hand-milking them is easy, I wouldn't want to hand milk a couple of cows twice a day....
No routine TB testing, and I would not co-graze cattle with sheep either, because of Johnes....
Also do I want to have the hassle of having to sell near on 200kgs of meat? Goat carcass much easier to manage, and way better meat than beef.

But whatever.... too many people can't get their head round the idea of goatsmilk and meat, and it is their loss!

[SallyintNorth]

It’s horses for courses, Anke.

There are more than 20 adults here and more than 10 children.  It would take a lot of goats, and those goats would take a lot of looking after, to meet our needs! 

With a small closed herd primarily for home consumption, and careful sourcing of the original stock, Johnnes shouldn’t be an issue.  The benefits of running sheep plus cattle is a grazing rotation => efficient use of grassland, healthy pasture and reduced worming.  If you don’t have grassland, then - assuming you’ve got scrub and or hedgerow or something, of course - you’d probably be looking at goats.

Setting up for milking and washing down is pretty much the same whichever species you are milking.  Cows have four teats which you milk 2 then 2.  Goats have 2 teats so you have to wash down, swap animals and wash another twice as many times .

Personally I’d find it easier to milk one or two cows than five or six goats to get the same amount of milk!  Lol.  We can flex our milk somewhat depending on whether the cow has a calf at the mo, which field she’s on and how much grass is in it, whether we separated the calf overnight or not, etc.  If we don’t want as much milk we leave the calves with the cows and just milk the Jersey; if we want max milk then the cows go on the best grass, the calves off overnight, and so on.

Our cows are hand-milked once a day.  For some of the year we don’t need to actually milk the crossbred, her calf keeps her happy and we get enough from the Jersey.

We could get 30-50% more milk if we milked twice a day, but at present we don’t need to push them.  Early on in the Jersey’s lactation, when the calf isn’t taking so much, we might milk her twice a day to keep her comfortable - but we don’t usually need to do that for more for a week or so.

We eat 1-2 bullocks a year, so we don’t in fact sell much beef, or indeed any most years.  We sometimes sell a few halves of lamb or hogget.  But yes, a small family would probably need to sell some of the meat, and or do swapsies with neighbouring farmers / smallholders.  You could of course use a less beefy type of bull than we do and manage the meat production down that way - a pure Jersey bullock at 9-10 months old would probably give about half the amount of beef that the 3/4 beef bullock did.  You could send them off younger if you wanted less still.

Another alternative would be to produce animals like Luther, and sell the surplus meat you don’t want to the butcher.  (Our butcher was extremely complimentary about this bullock.). No hassle at all

I’m very happy to eat goat meat, but I can’t imagine ever pronouncing it better than this wonderful rose veal beef we produce.      Tastes differ of course

Finally, one thing which is very individual and is pretty important is which animals float your boat.  If you don’t much care for cattle but love goats, then you’d do it with goats!  The OP is clearly a lover of cows, so whilst it’s great to explain how goats compare so s/he can make an informed choice, it sounds like the OP’s heart is with a Jersey   (Of course, if s/he’s only got 3 acres, and doesn’t want to or can’t rent some more, then it’s probably going to have to be goats anyway.)

[SallyintNorth]

Finally, one thing which is very individual and is pretty important is which animals float your boat.  If you don’t much care for cattle but love goats, then you’d do it with goats!  The OP is clearly a lover of cows, so whilst it’s great to explain how goats compare so s/he can make an informed choice, it sounds like the OP’s heart is with a Jersey   (Of course, if s/he’s only got 3 acres, and doesn’t want to or can’t rent some more, then it’s probably going to have to be goats anyway.)

Ex-BH always used to say you should get animals you like the look of, on the basis you’ve got to get out there and look after them every day, in all weathers, sometimes when you aren’t very well yourself - so you better have ones you like to see when you get to them!  Lol

[landroverroy]

Having only ever had a cow for a grand total of an hour I know very little about them, other than I want some, that is.

But having worked for years in my younger days with horses I remember how snappy the kids horses and ponies would get as soon as they started getting regular treats but all the cow training threads recommend treats for taming and training.

So do cows not get snappy for treats like horses and ponies?

No they don't. 2 reasons - a) They only have front teeth on their lower jaw so they physically can't bite like horses.  b) They don't act like horses, so their default action is to attempt to mug you by invading your personal space.
So basically - just like you shouldn't allow equines to ever get to the point of nipping, so you shouldn't allow a cow to think she'll get a treat by mugging you!
I have a herd of 30 sucklers - herefords, highlands and belted galloways and I cannot agree that they have little human interaction. They are checked every day just like any other stock and mine will come when called. But I would never use a bucket of food (with or without lid!) to get them to follow me. Once a cow has got her head in the bucket you aren't going to get it out again until she's finished it or another cow has pushed her out of the way and you have been squashed in the process.
I keep mine tame with carrots because you can cut them up small and keep them out of sight in your pockets and just get a piece out to feed a selective cow without the rest seeing it and trying to mug you for it. Furthermore if you throw a chunk of carrot on the ground the cow can easily see it, so you can give them treats without them having to come up to you and eat out of your hand. (I do hand feed mine but then I know them well enough to do it safely.) If you feel nervous then you can carry a stick with you. Not to beat them with, but just to fend off any that you feel are attempting to invade your personal space. Or you can just feed them from the other side of a fence till you get to know the pushy ones. Cattle, like horses, are herd animals and respect leadership. They would never attempt to mug the lead animal, so you need to take control and establish yourself as leader. So any treats are given on your terms - not their's and that way you won't get mugged, and you'll get pleasure from their company.   

[GBov]

Sad to say, I HATE goats!

Have tried them three times over the last 8 years and they are so not the animal for me.  Nigerian Dwarf Dairy, Nubian and then Fainting, the best of them (Nubian) were so delicate that it was a full time job just keeping them alive, the Fainting were funny but not much use (got them in trade) and the Nigerian were the most annoying animals I have EVER met!

Goat meat is nice but beef is a firm favorite, followed by lamb.  Goat is similar to lamb but we like fat and goats are too lean and not enough milk for the work involved. Nice taste to the milk though, we did like that part of having them.

How well do cows do in small spaces?  I ask because the local allotments have horses, ponies, cows, and sheep, as well as the normal poultry and veg. and the plots are nowhere near the acre each recommendation I have read.

[SallyintNorth]

Yes, our suckler herd was visited every day, as should all stock be.  And some of them were tame enough to scritch behind the ears or on the tail head, some would come over for a “chat” and a scritch. 

But the amount and quality of interaction with a cow that you milk every day, versus a cow in a suckler herd, is orders of magnitude different.

In fact, I’d not read anything about it and wasn’t prepared for it, but you and a cow that you milk every day form a strong bond.  Much like the bond with a horse you ride regularly, or a sheepdog who works with you. 

[SallyintNorth]

The happiest cow has many many acres to roam, so she can move about (with her pals) selecting the best bit.  But dairy cattle will “do” very well in a fold system, where they get a small amount of fresh grazing each day. 

Christine Page at Smiling Tree Farm mob grazes hers, and has a saying I like very much.  She aims to move them on when “they’ve eaten a third, trodden a third and left a third”. 

But managing cattle on one small piece of ground and not able to rotate around other small pieces?  I’m not sure that will work, certainly not for a high performance animal like a Jersey.  They are bred to produce milk no matter what, and will milk off their back if the forage isn’t adequate.  So managing a Jersey is all about keeping as much good fresh grass in front of her, on a daily basis, as she needs to meet the demands you and her calf are making of her.

You might do better to explore using older, lower performance breeds, and smaller cows.  It would be interesting to hear what folks with Shetlands think, and does anyone have Kerrys?  Or Irish Moiled?  I have no personal experience of any of these but wonder whether they might better suit the sort of arrangement you are describing.

To give you some measures, our two Jerseys, or one Jersey plus one cross as it now is, get moved around various areas here as needed.  There’s one lovely area that’s about 1/3 acre.  They go on there for 3-5 days roughly every 25 days through the summer, and that does the “eat a third, tread a third and leave a third” thing nicely.

I’m sure you could manage them tighter using strip grazing techniques, but you do need fresh grass to move them on to, and the ideal length of sward for a cow is not less than 2”, pref 3-4”.  Hereabouts, most of the time it needs a month to grow a good 2-3”.  And if you’ve grazed it right down, it may take an extra two to three weeks to get itself going again.

Hay doesn’t make milk, grass makes milk.  Some haylage will put some milk in the udder, but in general you want them eating fresh green grass whenever it’s avaialble.

[PipKelpy]

Mine know what's coming when they see my hand go into pocket! Couple of ewes, when bending down to them even manage to get nose in.

One thing that is coming back to me incredibly fast about keeping cattle is POTHOLES!!!!

This wretched weather is spoiling my plans! Too mild to bring them in, so they are out, which is great, no cleaning out! But the cratches now only feed cattle as the sheep don't want to jump through the mud! Gateways! Yea gods!!

A field perfect for winter has a good sized 14ft gateway! Rain, rain and the likes of Juniper standing in the middle of it tail up and letting rip now means that the roller will be working overtime next year! I can bypass that gateway for the sheep but why crap in gateways??

Knickers wouldn't go through it the other day and trotted off to the other exit! She not daft, other exit leads onto grass waiting for lambed ewes (They to pop within the next week) and Knickers herself (calf likes to kick out, she not impressed) end of this month!

I traipse back to buildings, get her  headcollar! Good job this cretin knows I'm boss! What a tongue though as it wraps itself around the grass!!

Cattle are fun, love them, even when it's wet and the likes of Mary comes hurtling down the field like an eventer sending tufts of turf up in the air and leaving POTHOLES behind her!

Never mind, deep breath, they are all happy and healthy!! Course, when it's cold and horrible all of them are waiting to come in! Wusses!!

[ferdi]

We keep sheep,goats,pigs and cows on our smallholding and by far the most rewarding are the cows, they come a close second to our dogs in what they give back.
As Sally says the bond you build up with a milking house cow is a strong one and if you have the space I wouldn’t hesitate.
I have a Kerry , jersey and a Charolais x guernsey and would say that the jersey is probably the easiest to manage for the beginner just because of her size and character, though the amount of milk produced can be daunting.


Personally I wouldn’t feed treats in the field you won’t be nipped but you will be mobbed! The best way to bond is through grooming, I horse brush mine everyday which they queue up for. I would definitely recommend taking the effort to halter train them and then tie them up somewhere where you can give treats in a more managed way .