NFU Mutual Smallholding Insurance

Author Topic: Ram ok to breed with daughters?  (Read 15296 times)

OhLaLa

  • Joined Sep 2010
Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« on: October 15, 2010, 03:11:23 pm »
As some of you will know I'm a bit (!) of a novice shepherd, am swotting up like mad and recently have seen a vid on you-tube saying it's ok for a ram to breed with his daughters but not grand-daughters etc.

I thought this was a big no no.

Your opinions please.

 ???

Voss Electric Fence

andywalt

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • kent
  • observe react administer enjoy !!
    • photos
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 03:16:04 pm »
Im a Novice too and that was a question that I had a few months back....most peoples general opinion is that one generation is ok but two is pushing it that is why you need to change your tup every two years as the third year will be a second generation.......as long as he was non related in the first place with his ewes!! others please feel free if you think I am wrong....cheers
Suffolk x romneys and Texel X with Romney Tup, Shetlands and Southdown Tup

bazzais

  • Joined Jan 2010
    • Allt Y Coed Farm and Campsite
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 05:04:19 pm »
Its not illegal.

But if the only reason for someone breeding their their rams onto their daughter is because they are trying to save money by not getting a new ram in then its just plain wrong in my opinion.

I wouldnt worry too much if its happened by accident though, it doesnt mean your going to get two head on your animals :)

Ta

Baz

Power Poultry

  • Joined Sep 2010
  • Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 06:06:59 pm »
I get the fact in sheep its wrong but in poultry to Line breed you put son back to mum and daughter back dad to keep type and can do this for 5 years then you run two lines and swap boys.


With My shelands I don,t want to do this would rather get  a new ram every two years.

I wish I knew why but in my head it says its right

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 06:28:19 pm »
If you look back through the sheep section you will find where this was discussed at length previously.

Basically, if you are breeding only for meat, then using a tup on his daughters/sisters/mother etc for one generation is probably not going to cause problems (but might so so).  If you have a pedigree flock and are producing breeding stock, then you will be paying a good deal of attention to the pedigrees of your tupping groups to avoid inbreeding and to increase the genetic diversity of your flock as much as possible.  The only exception would be to fix a certain trait by line-breeding, but you would only do this with your eyes wide open.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

Shnoowie

  • Joined Mar 2010
  • Devon
    • Drake Ryelands
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 01:39:38 pm »
I agree with Fleecewife.
We have found it difficult to get a ram for our ewes due to similar pedigrees, and it meant a 300 mile round trip to pick one up, but it is worth it in the long run; especially with pedigree sheep of rare/uncommon breeds.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 03:22:13 pm »
I agree with Fleecewife.
We have found it difficult to get a ram for our ewes due to similar pedigrees, and it meant a 300 mile round trip to pick one up, but it is worth it in the long run; especially with pedigree sheep of rare/uncommon breeds.
A friend of mine has just travelled to Germany to mate his pedigree bitch.  I might have done the same if it had been to line breed but not for a total outcross - weird.  Anyway, back to sheep.  In dogs you can still breed grandfather to granddaughter but it's against KC rules to mate father to daughter, or mother to son.  Strange how different species have their own breeding rules isn't it?
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

knightquest

  • Joined May 2010
  • Birmingham
    • Knight Pet Supplies
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 09:27:55 pm »
I'm not a breeder of any type and it probably shows in my answer/question.

How can it be right or normal to inbreed?

Ian
Ian (me), Diane (my wife) and 4 dogs. Ollie (Lab mix) , Quest (Malamute), Gazer and Boris (Leonbergers)

plumseverywhere

  • Joined Apr 2013
  • Worcestershire
    • Its Baaath Time
    • Facebook
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 01:52:54 pm »
THe thought of inbreeding any animal seems wrong to me but I would be interested to hear the theories behind it.
when I took my last litter of lionlop bunnies to the petshop (a new petshop to the usual one) first question was "are they inbred at all?" - round these parts its more usual to find interbreeding than anywhere else I think  ;)
Smallholding in Worcestershire, making goats milk soap for www.itsbaaathtime.com and mum to 4 girls,  goats, sheep, chickens, dog, cat and garden snails...

Sylvia

  • Joined Aug 2009
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2010, 09:45:04 am »
I think it would be wrong to interbreed any animal if there are known faults in the family but if the line is clear of any defects I can't see a problem.
Do you think some folk put a human angle on this?

Shnoowie

  • Joined Mar 2010
  • Devon
    • Drake Ryelands
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2010, 10:54:17 am »
Yep, I'm sure I put a very human angle on it!

Hardfeather

  • Guest
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2010, 12:48:48 pm »
Line-breeding is the mating of sons to their dams, and of daughters to their sires. It can also be the breeding of male offspring to 'aunts' (sisters of their mother), and female offspring to 'uncles' (brothers of their sire). Line breeding is practiced widely in livestock breeding. It serves to fix the genotypes of the offspring...that is, the genetic make-up of the individuals to be used for breeding the next generation. It is important to know the genetic 'content' of an individual, particularly when it is not outwardly determinable. Line-breeding is sometimes, by observation of the next generation, the only way to determine the genotypes of the parents.

The phenotype of an individual is its observable properties. In-breeding, ie, breeding brother to sister, when the genotypes of the parent stock are known, is often used to attempt to fix the phenotypes of the following generation...that is, to fix certain visible or identifiable characteristics in a strain...such as colour, skin/coat type, conformation, or behaviour.

In-breeding will also cause any undesirable traits to be fixed in the next generation, so great care must be taken when choosing breeding stock, and culling may be necessary in the offspring for the overall good of the strain.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:10:42 pm by AengusOg »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2010, 02:57:08 pm »
Well, in dogs it is slightly different.  Line breeding could also include grandparents to grandchildren.  The KC has recently issued a directive that 'close' linebreeding is not allowed - i.e. brother/sister; halfbrother/halfsister; mother/son; father/daughter.  Interbreeding is not a term I recognise.  In my opinion the above matings are inbreeding not linebreeding.
I have attached a pedigree that is line bred between 3rd generation on the Sire's side(Aberdon Sron na Ban Righ)  and 2nd generation on the Dam's(Aberdon Sgurr Mhairi).  The Dam's parents were also half brother/half sister.  These are litter sisters bred by me.  In addition, the Aberdon lines can be traced , via Fosscott, right back to the top french kennels of St Tugen - out of 64 great great grandparents, 46 have that affix.  We will expect the pups all to grow up very similar, and naturally all health checks were made prior to the mating.  This might help with understanding the principles.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 02:58:59 pm by doganjo »
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Hardfeather

  • Guest
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2010, 04:29:48 pm »
Line breeding could also include grandparents to grandchildren. 

Of course that's correct, and I should have said that, although you probably wouldn't find that much with breeding of sheep.

With poultry it is entirely normal for many generations of pullets to be mated back to one original stock cock, and for a good hen to be used many times to her her progeny and to their's.

robate55

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Suffolk
Re: Ram ok to breed with daughters?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 06:09:03 pm »
Interbreeding is the opposite to inbreeding. It is the breeding of two totally unrelated animals. Unfortunately as it sounds like inbreeding it commonly used when the user means inbreeding
Rose

 

mating ram with daughters? mating ewe lambs?

Started by Fieldfare

Replies: 8
Views: 4674
Last post August 10, 2012, 06:59:52 pm
by SteveHants
Help what breed ?

Started by Kevnyorks

Replies: 4
Views: 2015
Last post August 14, 2009, 11:06:22 pm
by Castle Farm
Hello, and what breed?

Started by lekkerlamb

Replies: 4
Views: 1677
Last post February 17, 2010, 11:08:05 am
by Emma
what breed are they?

Started by thestephens

Replies: 6
Views: 1954
Last post June 06, 2011, 07:42:37 pm
by andywalt
which breed

Started by michael

Replies: 8
Views: 2289
Last post February 01, 2012, 08:15:01 am
by SteveHants

Forum sponsors

FibreHut Energy Helpline Thomson & Morgan Time for Paws Scottish Smallholder & Grower Festival Little Peckers

© The Accidental Smallholder Ltd 2003-2019. All rights reserved.

Design by Furness Internet

Site developed by Champion IS