[Pebbles]

  Ah, that's better!

I have just stopped banging my head against a wall long enough to write this.

I have tried my very best to have a good relationship with the local planning department - but now I just dispair. I don't think I will be discussing plans with them or asking for any advice for quite a long time to come....if ever again!

We spent an entire day driving to our farm's local planning office at the beginning of September to hand in an Agricultural Notification for a polytunnel (for veggies most of the year but also to act as a sheep shelter in the thick of winter and a place to lamb in the spring) we spoke to our local planning officer and I tried to imagine him a bit friendlier than he actually was and then I waited and I waited. Nothing for over two weeks so I called him. We had mentioned in passing to him at the planning department that we wanted to build two 8' square farrowing arks (breeze blocks, sloping corregated roof and no more than 4' high) and he suggested just including them in the polytunnel's notification - we though great! He then just sat on the original notification while waiting for some 'advice' on the pig arks - even when I spoke to him over two weeks later, he said he had no news. I remained calm and asked him to process the polytunnel notification immediately.

Its now a further three weeks down the line and I've just spoken to him again. He's now 'not sure' but we might have to put in a proper planning application for the tunnell!!! AND we will have to put in planning applications for any animal housing, even if it's just a single ark for a pregnant sow!!! Are they just totally nuts, simply awkward or do they just sit at their desks thinking up ways to make other people's lives a misery??? On top of all that he mentioned the Community Council (now this lot ARE a shower of ********) want a consultation meeting as over five years ago another local farmer tried to gain planning permission for an egg production building..........WHAT has that got to do with us???

Oh there's more! When I mentioned that the notification form stated that we had to wait 28 days before proceeding with the tunnel he has now argued that the form is wrong (!) and we have to wait 2 months which following on from his initial 16 day delay in processing the form means we're looking at 'possibly' being told we need to submit a planning application just before Christmas when my sheep need shelter now!

And finally he is taking two weeks off and as good as said that no one will be able to deal with my case while he is away! Nice.

Has anyone had any experience with:
1) The breed of animal called planners
2) Planning applications for pig arks/ dog kennels/ chicken coups (yes those too, according to this numpty, require planning applications!)

I have checked and there is legislation which states that any animal housing requires planning permission if within 400m of a residential house (which unfortunately our farm is) but surely this must be aimed at large commercial housing - not a dozen chickens and four pigs?

Sorry for the rant, I'm just so wound up by the general attitude I've experienced.

Pebbles

(apologies if any of you are planning officers - I'm sure you're not all the same  )

[Ash Field Farm]

hi sorry to hear about what u r going through the are a breed unto them seleves  i know i am going through planning applications at the moment iam trying to set up a free range egg buisness i thought that was complicated enough
the prior notificaton is a 28 day notice if they do no have any coraspondance with in 28 days from when the application was registerd you can go a head and build that is the whole i dea of the notification iam using a planning company consaltancy called acorus which r rural specialist if u use the traditional pig arks u do not need planning permision as the are classed as mobile which explots the loop hole in the planning law check your local concils website for palnning allpications and look for yours it sould say the day it was recived on there u can the use that against them the 400m rule of the house isnt your house it is neiboughs houses  i believe as u r the one that want it there in the first place if it was me i would just do it any way them tell them if they where to say anything to p ee off lol  however ther is another option u can just go a head and do it as long as it is not noticed for 4 years then u can apply for a lawfull development  thats another loop hole in the law going back to the 400 meters thing is your house under an AOC  or argicultural ocupancy condition  if your dewlling was built for the perpose of agriculture then  u should have no problem i know i do not itend to apply for planning permision for my poly tunnle of pig arks  or anything else i want to do to be self sufficant all they do is stick the noses in any way i do agree with planning for big buildings  such as housing  comercial buildings but for agriculture  it should be short and sweet and not all should require planning u should be able to get on your your buisness  what is your local athority  cos most have the same rules  any probs give me a message as iam not doing anything at the mo so i could have a look for some info if u want  i have sumert that might help its farmers guide to planning

[MrRee]

Don't polytunnels come under the heading of 'temporary structures',and as so,only have to comply to minimal restrications pertaining to closeness to boundaries of neighbours? Would he know if you erect it now? Is the cover for it bright pink with purple spots or flourescent yellow and can be seen from space? Sounds like you've managed to hit on a job's worth. Has he even been to the site to assess,know the site from a previous visit or even been bothered to get out from behind his 'oh-so-anally-organised-desk"?
  As for the pig arks,sod 'em. I'd be tempted to build them and apply for retrospective permission,or go over his head and make a formal complaint. If he says the form is wrong,has he supplied the correct,updated form? If it were me,I'd be in his office,stood in front of his desk,talking calmly and smiling whilst I moved his stapler to the other corner.......Ree   

[stephen]

Ring him back and ask to speak to his boss, we had trouble with a different issue with our council (licensing) we were told we would not be issued a licence because the council diddnt agree we should have one, we then got lucky when his boss picked up the phone the next time we rang and apologised profusley to us, he then rang us back a couple of days later (after checking with the other parties concerned) and told us the council would have no problem issusing the licence and that the other employee (idiot as he is known in our house) had been repremanded for his actions towards us. you might just have a complte jobs worth like we did that dosent have a clue what he is talking about, try to go above his head! 

[garden cottage]

hi pebbles, weve had lots of problems to with planners but there are ways round things sometimes. cannot help with polytunnel but if you make the pig arks portable ie make the size you want but make it on a skid that you can tow with a tractor this is how ive got round it they cannot stop you using portable arks. Ive made my own ark which is 10ft x 5ft and it works a treat, tow it with tractor to move. hope this is helpfull

[countrygirlatheart]

Hi Pebbles

I understand your frustration from historical dealings with planning - can be very stressful !    I haven't personally submitted a prior agr not but have looked into it .....  someone did advise me once to put in your prior agr notification and then DON't chase up planning for an update as there was a chance it would quietly go past 28 days with no further word from them and then you can safely proceed - unfortunately too late for that bit of advice in your case - however, when I looked into it previously I noted that the 400m 'rule' applies in the case of 'intensive' livestock accommodation which in my interpretation (doesn't mean plannings will be the same !) might arguably be for example a building used to fully house cattle or sheep for long periods e.g. over winter - perhaps this is worth checking out.  I have in the past asked planning about polytunnels versus e.g. a wooden field shelter (e.g. agricultural style yorkshire boarding) and was told I would definitely need to submit a planning application for a polytunnel but prior agr notification for the wooden building.  Am considering a couple of Carbery pig arks myself - which in the advert look mobile and are dark green so would probably blend in quite well - and thinking very hard about advising planning.  Have had several people comment that its best to go ahead and see what happens (only talking about small mobile units here).  I understand that a lot of planning depts have to meet performance targets in terms of turn around time - it might be worth having a civil, quietly pleading type of chat with the person's senior - emphasising the importance from a welfare perspective of getting something sorted out.  Best of luck - hope it all works out.

[garden cottage]

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear.
Mark Twain

[Pebbles]

Thanks everyone for your quick replies. Not quite the right thing to say - but i'm 'glad' others have been through similar situations as I was starting to think that the 'numpty' just didn't like the look of me   I just feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place as, tempting as it is to speak to numpty's boss, we have to keep him on side as we are only at the start of our new way of life and are going to have a LOT of dealings with them in the future.  

As for the 400m - we are within about 120m of a 'non-agricultural' residence (on the other side of the B road from us, although they appear to be nice people and haven't complained about our existing pigs so maybe a little chat to acertain their feelings is in order. We have had 2 sows in an ark about 50m from their front door for the last year.

I can't seem to find any definition on what kind of animal housing constitutes a planning application as I am convinced the 'numpty' is just guessing when he says ANY animal housing so I am keep to find out more about stocking densities and sizes of applicable 'buildings/ arks etc. I did download DEFRAs Guide To Planning - very informative.

We too have both a planning consultant and an agricultural specialist on board with us and when I spoke to the planning consultant today he...well... he made me laugh with some of his comments.   He also says we now sit on it until the 28 days pass and then he will write to, not the numpty, but his boss. The word 'awkward' seems to be the general opinion of my local planning officer. Great! He also added the point about a moveable structures/ arks (ie two men can move it by whatever way in a couple of hours - half a day).

Not willing to go down the planning application for each ark, so we'll be resorting to the traditional (on skids) style. Shame - I thought a little row of a few farrowing arks would be really practical.

This planner has never been on a site visit to our farm but it is a very small area he covers and he has had a lot of dealings recently with our neighbours who have just received planning permission for a house (and also use our consultants) so he is very familiar with the area. It is really the Community Council who are the bane of everyone's life round here! They spend hours scanning the planning applications online and object to EVERYTHING (so much so, I almost feel sorry for the planing officers) - they come up with the most ridiculous objections and even add a few lies (as we experienced when our caravan arrived on site....an enforcement officer was on the phone within half an hour and an enforcement notice served the next day!!!) - they generally believe that everything should be left as it is for their enjoyment....unless of course THEY want a little extension etc! Definition of NIMBYS: see our Community Council

At my lowest point today I was urging my partner to accept a huge offer our neighbour has repeatedly made on our land and we could just move away to another farm that didn't require planning applications.......but that moment has passed, and now I'm in fighting mode - planners beware! (Rosemary, don't warn them  )

Any more experiences of the planners or tips/ words of wisdom will be very gratefully received. It would appear it's a topis a lot of us have had problems with.

[rustyme]

hello Pebbles,
               I don't know if this helps , or even if it applies to all planning depts. but I was told by a planning official , that you don't need planning permission for loose boxes/stables, if they are for working horses, not just riding horses but working ones. I asked more questions, and that includes Welsh Mountain  Ponies, used as working horses...lol. The difference being riding horses/ponies are just for enjoyment , working horses are used directly to work the land. Another thing he said , always call them loose boxes NOT STABLES .  Another thing I found out , is that you can build whatever you want on your own land , even a house, but if the planning dept . find it , they can then say that you must apply for retro planning permission. That isn't always granted...lol . Back to the loose boxes,  you can have a loose box for a working horse, and as long as you have a horse there, who can say if the horse is a worker or not ? You can always say that you are in the process of training the horse. It may be something worth checking out if all else fails ?
  Good luck anyway .....Russ

[Rosemary]

This is what I got from our planners

"Rosemary, the tests of whether PP is required in this case are basically:

    * Is the building for an agri purpose on an agri unit  of more than 0.4Ha?
    * Would the building plus any others erected in the last 2 years exceed 265sqm?
    * Would any part of the building be within 25m of a metalled portion of a classified road?
    * Would the height of the building exceed 12m?


If the answer is NO to all of these questions, then no PP is required.  Hope that helps. "

My understanding is that if the answer to all four questions is "Yes" then you need to notify them of your intention to build but it's not planning permission per se.

It sounds like a minefield. I know other folk who have had real problems with the planners, partly around inconsistency of interpretation of rules by different planners.

Good luck!

[doganjo]

Try building your own house!  That's a nightmare too.  These planners are little tin gods!  One wee lassie told me I couldn't have a bay window because it wasn't in keeping with the local architecture.  So I spent 30 minutes going round taking photos of 12 bay windows around the countryside and in the nearby village, as well as one in our hamlet, and sent them to her by email one at a time.  She phoned and asked what I was doing, so I told her I was educating her as to teh local architecture , she said 'Oh HAVE your b - - - - y bay window!'  A second one told me, after the house was built, that I couldn't have a chimney coming through the sloping roof, so again I went round and got photos of three in the same hamlet of 7 houses.  She still refused to agree, and spoke over me on the phone which I consider extremely rude, she was very offhand too.  So I wrote to the Head of Planning and quoted exactly what she had said.  He phoned and apologised for her manner and her error, following it up with a letter - she had made a mistake - she hadn't realised the house was already built and we were only asking for a revsion for something else.  I ask you - lack of manners, lack of knowledge, lack of time, but wasting it n simple matters.
Annie

[garden cottage]

or you could buy some caravans and a few pickups,buy a paddock anywhere and put in electric water and drainage, site your vans build whatever you like,and walk all over the planning laws and get away with it, like they do round here!

[Pebbles]

Back to the loose boxes,  you can have a loose box for a working horse, and as long as you have a horse there

Unfortunately Russ we don't have a horse  but it did cross my partner's mind to buy a load of horse boxes and put them to work as farrowing arks! 

This is what I got from our planners
    * Is the building for an agri purpose on an agri unit  of more than 0.4Ha?
    * Would the building plus any others erected in the last 2 years exceed 265sqm?
    * Would any part of the building be within 25m of a metalled portion of a classified road?
    * Would the height of the building exceed 12m?
If the answer is NO to all of these questions, then no PP is required.

Hi Rosemary, hope you had a great break in NY. We can only answer yes to the first statement so that would mean that only a notification is necessary?  You're so right, it's a minefield.....but you hope you can trust that the planners know what their talking about - I'm getting more accurate information from you guys! 

she said 'Oh HAVE your b - - - - y bay window!' 

Oh Annie, I can only dream of the day we'll be able to successfully argue a case for planning permission for a house - lucky you. I have to say from your comment above that my impression of my planning officer was a spoiled 5 year old in a suit 

or you could buy some caravans and a few pickups,buy a paddock anywhere and put in electric water and drainage, site your vans build whatever you like,and walk all over the planning laws and get away with it, like they do round here!

Well like I said, the community council notice EVERYTHING round here and the caravan we have must now be off site by the 1st of May - or else! Another bright idea of my partner (oh, he's evil! ) is if things get so bad for us there we'll just move out, leave the gates open and invite every gypsy in Scotland to set up home there....just for badness  Maybe then they would re-address their thoughts on allowing hard working people to grow veggies and raise a few animals and not see it as armageddon!

[Rosemary]

I know this is slightly tangential to the original post, but I think government, both local and national, need to get their heads straight about food security, local food production and related issues like development in the countryside. There is so much land that could be used to grow food and isn't - it's not viable for a big producer but small local producers might take it on as a second income. But bureaucracy just seems to make it so hard.

To be fair, there has to be protection for consumers and the rest fo society and I'm sure we all know folk who have tried to pull the wool over the planners eyes with so called businesses, just to get a house with some land that will end up grazing a few horses, and it must be hard for the planners to get round that sort of stuff.

The biggest gripe I hear (apart from rudeness, which is unforgiveable in a public servant, who should remember who pays their wages (this is from a public servant, by the way)) is inconsistency in interpreting planning guidance.

[garden cottage]

pebbles i think your answer is on this very forum,next time you go to the planning department take MR REE with you! military trained,good at difficult situations relating to communication problems, doesnt take s*it from anyone and hes armed to the teeth .........see members photos              neil