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Author Topic: castration dilemma  (Read 1048 times)

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2019, 09:18:35 am »
Noel Fitzpatrick will be relieved
Voss Electric Fence

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2019, 10:51:12 am »
Noel Fitzpatrick will be relieved

 :roflanim:

See, I’d never say anyone but him is more experienced at fixing skeletal issues in domestic animals.  But I suspect I’ve castrated more lambs than he has ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2019, 10:51:55 am »
Although I now remember he’s from farming stock, so I could be wrong at that  ;)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

messyhoose

  • Joined Nov 2017
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2019, 11:35:01 am »
i havenr had time to read all the comments but Twizzle- actually the code of recommendations for livestock (sheep) states that only a vet can do surgical castration in animals OVER 3 months old- , therefore the trained/ competent farmer CAN LEGALLY preform open caastration in under 3 month olds- these lambs will not even be 2 months when done here. Also it IS ILLEGAL to use th rubber ring method after the first week of life. NOw this is a nonsense aas ronnies are no way developed enough at even a month for any type of castration! The law was designed for commercial lambs maturing much sooner than the rare breeds.

i didnt mean to start an arguement on here i just wanted some pain relief. we are NOT breaking the law- the vets here know exactly what is happening on island but this lamb is my pet not a destined for meat locker animal, and as a point of view i dislike all castration without pain relief, but going to the vet in mainland is not an option :(

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2019, 02:34:43 pm »
Never mind their squabbles messyhoos.  They are enjoying themselves  ::) .


You are the one in the real situation, you know the local ways and what is allowed.


Anyway, I've lost track of whether or not you have found an accessible pain reliever for your little chap, as that was your original question.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

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Sbom

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Staffordshire
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2019, 02:45:58 pm »
Interestingly last year I  bought a  box of castration rings from the vets, while waiting to be served I was reading the packet. It stated lambs must be done within 4 weeks of being born! When I turned the box around it said made in Australia.

Strange that different countries have different rules. 4 week old testicles on a lamb can be massive ????

Backinwellies

  • Global Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
  • Llandeilo Carmarthenshire
    • Nantygroes
    • Facebook
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2019, 04:23:52 pm »
The UK law on castration: 

61 Castration may only be carried out in strict
accordance with the law (see box below). The
procedure should be performed by a competent,
trained operator. Once a lamb is over three months
of age, castration may only be performed by a
veterinary surgeon using a suitable anaesthetic.

Shepherds should only carry out surgical castration
after having first considered and ruled out alternative
methods, in discussion with their veterinary surgeon.

Under the Protection of Animals (Anaesthetics) Act
1954, as amended, it is an offence to castrate lambs
which have reached three months of age without the
use of an anaesthetic. Furthermore, the use of a
rubber ring, or other device, to restrict the flow of
blood to the scrotum or tail, is only permitted
without an anaesthetic if the device is applied during
the first week of life.
Linda

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Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2019, 05:06:28 pm »

Furthermore, the use of a
rubber ring, or other device, to restrict the flow of
blood to the scrotum or tail, is only permitted
without an anaesthetic if the device is applied during
the first week of life.


As I said, I would argue the toss in COURT if necessary about the use of elastrator rings on primitive lambs, which have such small testicles that they can slip back through the ring, or worse, get trapped halfway through, which would cause agony.  It's time this rule was reviewed and clarified in light of what we experience in the field with such small lambs.  There is no evidence I am aware of that the rulemakers considered primitive sheep when reaching their decision on an age restriction.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2019, 05:28:40 pm »
I empathise, FW, but am of mixed feelings.

I think it’s about age and stage at least as much as size. If we had tiny rings for our tiny sheep, we’d have no issue doing it by 7 days, would we.  Their testicles drop by about day 3, if not present straight away - or at least, most of my primitive boys’ have.  So if the limit has been set with reference to the feelings - physiological and emotional - of the lamb, then it is less than ideal that we can’t ring them within the 7 days.

I’ve given it a lot of thought over the years. I’ve wondered whether maybe the Combined Flock Book, the Rare Breed Survival Trust, and the relevant breed societies could get together and organise the manufacture of tiny rings and tiny elastrators. But no doubt the setup costs would be huge, and the market extremely limited.

With my flock in Cumbria, I mostly found that if I couldn’t do them by day 3, I wasn’t going to catch them easily, so would gather the new ewes and lambs up once or twice a week and do anyone not yet done, if possible.  Some would escape the gather and then be too big, or one or two might have one testicle not fully descended the first time, and be a little too big the next time.  So we bought sheep burdizzos and did anyone I’d missed when they came up to the farm - but depending on the year, they might be around 3 months old at that point, and the testicles would be a fair size.  One year we asked the vet to castrate the 4 I hadn’t ringed, and they did, but said they’d rather not do them at older than one month in future.  Well if we were bringing them up to the farm at one month, we could burdizzo ourselves, so that’s what we did thereafter. 

Now I’m without an experienced burdizzo operator, so I’m back to doing it with rings.  All the crosses are fine, I can pretty much always do them by day 7. And the fields are smaller here, so I can get them caught ;).

This year I used a Shetland again on my new entrants, both of whom are crosses, and no problems.  But last year I’d used a Heb tup on my first timers (both crosses again, and neither as small as a Heb) and one other sheep, and the tup lambs were a nightmare.  Tiny testicles, slow to drop, if you thought you’d got them and they slipped back, the scrotum was so woolly it was really difficult to remove the band....  I said never again.  If Hebs were my breed, I’d have to decide, as you have, to ring later than the guidance, or else to get someone else trained with the burdizzo.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

shep53

  • Joined Jan 2011
  • Argyll
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2019, 06:29:59 pm »
i havenr had time to read all the comments but Twizzle- actually the code of recommendations for livestock (sheep) states that only a vet can do surgical castration in animals OVER 3 months old- , therefore the trained/ competent farmer CAN LEGALLY preform open caastration in under 3 month olds- these lambs will not even be 2 months when done here. Also it IS ILLEGAL to use th rubber ring method after the first week of life. NOw this is a nonsense aas ronnies are no way developed enough at even a month for any type of castration! The law was designed for commercial lambs maturing much sooner than the rare breeds.

i didnt mean to start an arguement on here i just wanted some pain relief. we are NOT breaking the law- the vets here know exactly what is happening on island but this lamb is my pet not a destined for meat locker animal, and as a point of view i dislike all castration without pain relief, but going to the vet in mainland is not an option :(     
   READ The Prohibited Procedures On Protected animals  2010  sheep  this adds to the 1954 code and states that  surgical castration at any age must be performed by a vet

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2019, 10:43:28 pm »
From SallyintNorth:  <<<This year I used a Shetland again on my new entrants, both of whom are crosses, and no problems.  But last year I’d used a Heb tup on my first timers (both crosses again, and neither as small as a Heb) and one other sheep, and the tup lambs were a nightmare.  Tiny testicles, slow to drop, if you thought you’d got them and they slipped back, the scrotum was so woolly it was really difficult to remove the band....  I said never again.  If Hebs were my breed, I’d have to decide, as you have, to ring later than the guidance, or else to get someone else trained with the burdizzo. >>>

It's not the Hebs we have had problems with, other than trying to catch them, it was the Soay,( more 'primitive'), which were poorly endowed, when we have kept them in the past.  Our Hebs seem to have been more generous in the scrotal department than your experience and I suppose we are used to the woolly aspect :D .  Catching the Hebs had to be done individually, by rugby tackle, not as a flock, because every round-up knocks the horns off at least one four horned ewe lamb.  So really my comments are about Soay, as they are the only tiny primitive we have kept.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2019, 10:44:24 pm »
Ah, thanks for the clarification.  That makes sense.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2019, 12:34:39 am »
Noel Fitzpatrick will be relieved

 :roflanim:

See, I’d never say anyone but him is more experienced at fixing skeletal issues in domestic animals.  But I suspect I’ve castrated more lambs than he has ;)

And yet you are not confident in using a burdizzo

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2019, 08:22:30 am »
Noel Fitzpatrick will be relieved

 :roflanim:

See, I’d never say anyone but him is more experienced at fixing skeletal issues in domestic animals.  But I suspect I’ve castrated more lambs than he has ;)

And yet you are not confident in using a burdizzo

I’ve castrated many thousands of lambs using the elastrator and am totally confident with that.

I’ve helped a very experienced burdizzo operator do maybe thirty calves and similar lambs.  I do feel confident in my own ability with the burdizzo, but not sufficiently to feel I should train someone else. 

Why is it bothering you to admit that farmers have a great deal of experience, Me? 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

messyhoose

  • Joined Nov 2017
Re: castration dilemma
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2019, 09:07:17 am »
ah i see Shep, yes it seems the farmers here are living in a pre 2010 era! i wonder if they are aware- i will bring it up at the sheep court. It will cause significant difficulty, but as i said before i am against non pain relief procedures i would be happy to see the law effected. Indeed i was actually at the Farm Animal Welfare Council AGM the year they discussed this issue and i stood up and asked if there were a potential for a local anaestetic for a layperson to be made available (much like for dehorning calves). They said no and suggested i change management processes to avoid having to castrate if i was unhappy about it. They seem then to have ammended the Law so the most painful procedure is supposed to be only carried out by a vet (so maybe that change was my fault!! :O ) Now thats all very well but as i said before my lamb will grow up in isolation if i do not get him castrated. I am an advocate for high welfare standards and spend time campaigning to do so. This lamb was a rescue case himself. Hence the original enquiry.

 

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