[Fleecewife]

This crosses a bit with alang's topic 'covering veg beds'.


I have been trying to change to a no-dig system in our veg patch for some years.  I can't dig at all any more, and Mr F has enough to do without putting his back out using a spade, so no-dig seems ideal for us.  We do all the right things - organic methods, loads of mulch and manure, seaweed meal, comfrey, wood ash, not walking on the soil (mostly), and so on.


However, we have a huge problem with creeping thistle.  We have won the battle with them in pastureland, but in the garden they are winning hands down.  The roots go so deep that it's impossible to dig out every little piece, or the deeper roots. We cover each bed for a total of 17 months before planting crops, but still the thistle roots are alive and bounce back into full growth as soon as the light gets to them.


I have tried covering in the summer too and planting through holes in the cover, which does work well for things such as onions, but the thistles pop up out of each planting hole, and suck down chlorophyll to thrive again. To pull them up when they appear doesn't work because they are attached to large, deep, easily snapped roots.


The latest kitchen garden magazine has an article on no dig which says something like 'fork out perennial weeds before you start, and you won't need to dig again' - Grrrr!  Our plot ends up getting dug every year, which loses all the benefits of no dig which we are looking for.


Does anyone have any magic, no-chemicals way to get rid of creeping thistle from a plot?  Please? 

[Lingon]

There are two ways you could try. One is getting yourself some bunnies, they tend to kill everything, and put their pen over the thistels, the other is to make them rot. If you continusly cut the stem of and then drench the plant with water, you will see a decrease.

[Anke]

I am in the process of going no-dig using my goat muck as a mulch. I have to say that pulling the thistles every time they come up does seem to reduce them, then my beds are covered with weed membrane over the winter. Not won the battle though, but working on it. I have found they do pull out easier through the mulch layer.

[Lesley Silvester]

Not thistles but I do have a problem with ground elder growing round the base of a hedge where it's impossible to dig so tried a weed burner this year. They certainly didn't have so much growth this year so it does seem to have worked. I went for an electric one, having twice tried a gas cylinder one. I found the gas leaked out so after one use I would have to buy a new gas cylinder. They also rusted up quickly which the electric one doesn't do so, although it was more money to buy, it does seem to be more economical as more efficient.

[Fleecewife]

Thank you all for some interesting ideas to try.  Bunnies are out, as our dogs would have them for supper however well they were caged.  Our sheep do eat thistles but not in the veg garden.  We have had pigs in the past and they made it worse by tearing apart the roots and spreading them around.
We do have a weed flame gun which we use against red mite mostly, but I could give it a go on the thistles when they are small.  I think I shall just have to try pulling the tops off, and hope that over the years that wears the thistles out - though it's probably as likely to wear me out first.  I'll practice in the tunnel over the winter on any bare patches.  The only good things about creeping thistle is that bees love them and their flowers smell wonderfully sweet.

[Backinwellies]

I don't know whether salt would work?   sometimes recommended for dandelions in a lawn which also have long tap roots.

The one thing I wouldn't do is let them flower (I know they spread underground but they also spread by seed.)  Sorry bees. 

[Maysie]

Oh dear.  This doesn't bode well for my new 'no dig' veggie beds that I am in the process of installing......

....directly over LOADS of perennial weeds. 

[Fleecewife]

I don't know whether salt would work?   sometimes recommended for dandelions in a lawn which also have long tap roots.

The one thing I wouldn't do is let them flower (I know they spread underground but they also spread by seed.)  Sorry bees.

I think there are so many that  salt would contaminate the soil.  The bees have access to lots of creeping thistle in our various wildlife bits, which are neither pasture nor veg garden, so they're fine.  But good idea not to let them get so far out of hand that they flower in the veg garden.  Can't stop them floating in on the breeze though.  Everyone round here has thousands of the things, even folk who use weedkiller.

[Fleecewife]

Oh dear.  This doesn't bode well for my new 'no dig' veggie beds that I am in the process of installing......

....directly over LOADS of perennial weeds.

Please keep us in the loop with how your beds turn out.  Any pics of progress so far?

[Maysie]

Please keep us in the loop with how your beds turn out.  Any pics of progress so far?

Not much to see at the moment other than black plastic sheeting - which is now completely covered in leaves!

[Fleecewife]

Please keep us in the loop with how your beds turn out.  Any pics of progress so far?

Not much to see at the moment other than black plastic sheeting - which is now completely covered in leaves!

I mean next summer to see if your perennial weeds pop up 

[cloddopper]

Fleecewife , when you say no chemicals .  it's difficult not all weed killer type  chemicals have a bad residual effect . Indeed some are recommended by the RHS .

 There are some chemicals that turn to nitrogen after about six weeks such as steer or horse urine. Give the ground daily doses of such a strong urine for six weeks in the growing season and it might sort your problem.

https://www.hunker.com/12336727/urine-as-a-weed-killer


 Another chemical is a powder that acts like ammonia, which again I think turns to nitrogen in the soil.
To find out more perhaps read up on Sulphamet or Sulphamate ( it's available on eBay too ).
It's good for putting 1/4 teaspoon of crystals on a newly cut plants , pour them on the weeping stem in the ground .

or
 In the growing season cut them  down to a couple of inches then a week to three days later when they are showing the change over to re-growing new leaf use a water can with fine rose having  100 grm fully dissolved in warm water on  stuff if it's like elder . wet them well , it needs six  or more hrs of dry weather on the  new growth  to be effective .

 I seem to recall that rhubarb leaves steeped in hot water then left to leech out for three or four days is also a gardeners old timer weed killer but do look that one up as I can't remember the down sides .
  I also think there is something natural in elderberry leaves or bark ( nothing much grows under them )  that can be used as a weed killer  but it has a bit of a longish residual effect . Might be worth reading about ?

[Lesley Silvester]

Garden Organic did some experiments on the chemicals that are supposed to turn to nitrogen and they are still of the opinion that they are harmful. It's worth looking on their website for advice.

[Fleecewife]

Cloddopper I love the vision of me chasing someone's horse around the paddock, or worse, a field full of gentleman cows, with a bucket, hoping they'll pee 


When I say 'no chemicals' I really do mean that.  Anything added to the soil in quantity is going to change the chemistry of the soil in some way (oxalic acid), whether toxic or just the pH perhaps. The area around people's houses historically have loads of stinging nettles, encouraged to grow by the amount of urine people deposited there.  Even cultivating the soil does of course alter it, but I try to keep my footprint on the land as small as possible.
 All the things sold for weed control have been produced by man, in some sort of factory, using power which has been obtained by some sort of invasive system requiring the input of energy and raw materials, and producing effluent which needs to be disposed of.  Then it has to be packaged and transported and I have to go to the shop to buy it.  We do try wherever we can to do everything ourselves with minimum input, although it's not always possible.
One of the difficulties of using 'products' in a veg garden, is that the veg itself has to survive the application and thistles have a habit of popping up right next to a wanted plant.  Hence my original mention of 'magic' 


MGM - you're right, I do need to have a retrawl through Garden Organic's info.  I sometimes wish I'd had loads of children so they could help me in the garden.....but perhaps not, two seems plenty 


PS - I've just been told that the magic ingredient in elder is CYANIDE 



<<< The seeds, stems, leaves and roots of the BlackElder are all poisonous to humans. They contain acyanide-inducing glycoside. Eating a sufficient quantity of these cyanide-inducing glycosides cancause a toxic buildup of cyanide in the body and make you quite ill.



Are Elderberry Bushes Poisonous? - Norm's Farms

https://normsfarms.com/blogs/growing-and...elderberry/are-elderberry-bushes-poisonou...>>>

[Lesley Silvester]

PS - I've just been told that the magic ingredient in elder is CYANIDE 

That's something I'd not heard of. Too late to tell me know though. I left him years ago.