[SallyintNorth]

I am very taken with Quincy's son.  Black Wensleydale x Romney.

Strapping great lad but no issues getting born, and up on his feet and round the milk bar nice and promptly.

Fleece looks very promising at this stage.

Would save the hire fee and biosecurity issues for tupping this back end.  He's not related to any of the breeding sheep apart from his mother.

Downsides

• management until tupping.  We have wethers he can run with but I'd have to wean him and a few pals earlier than I would normally, and although I think he won't be the type to jump fences, I can't say the same of a few of the girls . And I do not want to lamb any earlier than early April.
• he'd have to go away after working, which means I wouldn't get his fleece next summer and he wouldn't be staying on as a fleece wether.  Unless I were to get him castrated I suppose - in which case, I didn't save the tup hire fee!
• he may not be as good when grown up as he appears now (but we're only breeding for our own meat and fleece, and the odd replacement ewe)

Any thoughts to help me decide?  I need to ring him in the next day or two if I'm going to...

[landroverroy]

My thoughts;-


You are obviously attracted by his fleece - so castrate and keep for fleece and eat as a shearling or 2 shear or whenever.
Is he really what you want as a terminal sire? - So another reason to castrate.
Buy a likely looking desirably bred ram lamb or older in the store market, use and resell for meat, or eat yourself. Overcomes problem of where to keep a ram.


So basically my thoughts are - castrate him. Save ram hire costs by buying one at store price and sell after using at fat price after new year when you will get more than you paid for him.

[SallyintNorth]

I maybe haven't stated clearly that, from my point of view, this is a fleece flock.  We breed for fleece and eat the offspring after they give us a fleece and or a skin.  Yes we breed for other characteristics too, but the intention is that all the sheep are good sheep, easy to look after and lamb, have decent carcasses but aren't too large for their predominantly lady handlers to manage, and all have wonderful fleeces.

So whilst, if this was a conventional flock all about meat, store lambs etc, I'd agree with you, the answer to

Is he really what you want as a terminal sire?

is that, in this flock, yes, I think he maybe is.

[SallyintNorth]

It's very helpful having other views to bounce off, it's helping me work out what is good and bad about the idea for us.  So thanks landroverroy, and please do chip in other folks.  (Even if I'm only going to debate your point, it's really helpful!  )

I am attracted by not having to bring animals on for a year.  Buying at the mart doesn't appeal at all, though I had originally intended to buy a lamb of an interesting fleece breed direct from its breeder, or borrow (hire) a ram from a nearby breeder as we did last year. 

So actually, this feels more 'self-sufficient' too - all the meat we eat is home-bred and home-reared.

I'm now even wondering if we could do this routinely, minimising the number of years when we need to bring a tup or tups in. 

Skyhawk's only related to his mother, and to any ewe lambs we keep from this year of course.  They won't get bred until 2019, so I could use him on everyone I want this year, although I probably wouldn't use him on any first timers as he'd be bigger than the two candidates from last year.  But they can wait another year, and I'll get a smaller tup for them and any keepers from this year.

[Womble]

I'd be keeping him entire, and keeping my options open.

The worst outcome is that you decide not to use him, and hence send him away a bit earlier than you otherwise would have done. Envisage being offered him for hire in November - what would you say?

Also if you don't, I think you'll always be looking at him without his balls, and wondering what might have been. (Funnily enough, he may well share those thoughts!).

[Buttermilk]

Both sides of his breeding give a good fleece so although he is a hybrid there is no poor side to throw back to.  I would give him a chance if you can cope with his management.

[landroverroy]

Is he really what you want as a terminal sire?

is that, in this flock, yes, I think he maybe is.

So - that partially answers your question, and covers biosecurity and cost of hiring in. 

[dixie]

I'd say keep him entire, purely because i now wish I'd kept one of mine entire and am now kicking myself!

[Foobar]

Keep him entire. You won't get his fleece but if he's as good as you think then his lambs should out weigh that loss.  If he turns out not good enough, eat him next year (you say you have somewhere for him to go after working), or sell him.

[SallyintNorth]

I've lived a large proportion of my life on the two mottos:

Don't acquire regrets

and

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger

So many of your posts are chiming with me! 

We lamb April, so the tup works in November.  It's possible his skin would still be a good one if we sent him off right after tupping, but less certain than if he went earlier or at the end of his second summer.  And it's quite a trek - an all day outing - to pick up the skin(s) and take them to Devonia.  Whether I'd feel I wanted to do that on the off chance his fleece is okay for a skin .  Devonia themselves, by the way, don't seem to think that time of year matters, but I know a lot of people say you should send them when they've been "born or shorn in the year", and that after October can be dodgy.

[SallyintNorth]

Oh, and when I say

• he'd have to go away after working

I'm using "go away" euphemistically.  I mean to slaughter.  However, there is a further possibility, that he joins the tup we used this year and some others on a neighbouring farm.  Maybe it would be worth exploring that, then I could keep him until we've seen his lambs, and have the option of a fleece and a skin, or even using him again if I am getting a lot of what I like.  (Although same biosecurity issues as a hired tup if he's been off the farm, of course.)

[Foobar]

sent him off right after tupping

Don't, unless you are just feeding him to the dog - he'll have lost condition and will taste rank. Wait until the following spring (May ish) - if you can get him kept elsewhere over winter you could take him direct from there to slaughter without impacting your biosecurity.


If you bought in a ram what would you do with him?

[SallyintNorth]

sent him off right after tupping

Don't, unless you are just feeding him to the dog - he'll have lost condition and will taste rank. Wait until the following spring (May ish) - if you can get him kept elsewhere over winter you could take him direct from there to slaughter without impacting your biosecurity.

So I’ve always heard but we sent our last tup off a month after working and he tasted fabulous.  We’d had it all minced just in case but it was awesome. 

If you bought in a ram what would you do with him?

If I hire, as I did this time, send him back .

If we bought a lamb, eat him after working - but we prefer to breed and rear all our meat if we can. 

[Penninehillbilly]

I think you are answering your own question Sally, you want to keep him. So keep him. 
If the experiment goes wrong, you will still have lambs maybe, maybe not, with potential, but you will have satisfied yourself that you tried.
Running him back with his mum shouldn't be such a bad thing, his lines aren't close in anyway, we didn't ring a lamb right, his son was fine.
As for fences, I found electric fence worked well just after shearing, maybe they would remember long enough to get to November ? Or could you keep him in a smaller area, with one buddy?

[SallyintNorth]

Yes, I think you're right, PHB.  This thread has really helped me crystallise my thoughts and decide to give it a shot.

So thank you all very much for taking the time to share your thoughts, you've been a big help 

I just hope Lessa the Wonder Sheep doesn't now have a totally fabulous tup lamb... :/