[hughesy]

A friend of the wife's from work lives about 10 miles away from us. They have some land that they want to clear using pigs. They have a CPH number but have never had pigs before so no herd number.
What they have suggested is that we move some pigs to their property for a period of time, probably a couple of months which might coincide with maybe a few weaners staying there until they reach killing weight. The pigs would remain ours but they would do all the daily stuff like feeding and general looking after them, and they would pay for their upkeep while they were there. We could visit perhaps weekly to make sure everything's ok. At the end of the agreed period the pigs would come back to us, or go straight to slaughter and the resulting carcasses would be ours.
I haven't been to have a look at their place yet so it might become a non starter yet.
Question. Would they need to register as pig keepers with Animal Health and obtain a herd number? My thinking is that they would and that they'd also need to register for e-aml2 in order to receive pigs onto their holding and to move them back again at the end.
I'm not overly keen on the idea to be honest for a number of reasons. I'd prefer to just sell them some weaners. I don't mind helping out and maybe even taking them to the abatoir for them but I'm uneasy with the idea of someone else looking after and feeding my pigs and having no control over the end result or over their welfare while they're there.
What do you think?

[Fowgill Farm]

Question. Would they need to register as pig keepers with Animal Health and obtain a herd number? My thinking is that they would and that they'd also need to register for e-aml2 in order to receive pigs onto their holding and to move them back again at the end.
I'm not overly keen on the idea to be honest for a number of reasons. What do you think?

Think you answered your own question really and yes they'd need to register for AML and have a herd number regardless of the pigs being yours because thats the way the system is set up, this goes back to reason i think all pigs should carry their herd mark with them which would stop the authorities having to dish out herd numbers to people who only want a couple of weaners to fatten, i think you should only get a herd number if you breed and any weaners you sell go on your herdmark and to slaughter on that mark, i think it would be better for traceability too.
and don't forget moving them betwen holdings theres the standstill to think about
hth
mandy

[Hassle]

If it was me I'd just phone up animal health and ask them. The pigs are yours and are part of your herd you are able to provide grid references as the location of your herd which can be recorded onto the system ... so better not to go on hearsay and guess work 

[Fowgill Farm]

If it was me I'd just phone up animal health and ask them. The pigs are yours and are part of your herd you are able to provide grid references as the location of your herd which can be recorded onto the system ... so better not to go on hearsay and guess work 

Theres no point in ringing AHA they will just direct you straight to AML service, regardless of who owns the pigs Hughesey will still have to do a move off his holding onto their holding and they will have to do a receipt AML and then another to send them either back to  him or to the abbattoir, rules is rules.
mandy

[Foobar]

Dunno if it's the same with pigs, but with sheep you can have multiple CPH's against your name ... I would ring AH and ask them.

[Anke]

If you feel uneasy about "lending out" some pigs I just wouldn't do it. A complicated set-up like this just sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially if these people are complete novices - what if said weaners escape/keel over etc etc etc. I would offer to sell to them, if they don't have transport quote for delivery/transport to abattoir but otherwise stay clear.

[oaklandspigs]

Ownership of both pigs and land are irrelevant.
 
All that the authorities want is who is responsible and that they adhere to the law.
 
Therefore you can have land registered to you under the CPH rules which you do not own or even rent - as long as you are the responsible person.
 
Similarly any animals going to a CPH are the responsibility of the CPH holder, irrespective of ownership.
 
That's the way the system works.
 
You can have multiple pieces of land registered to your CPH as longs as they are within 5 miles of each other, and these can be treated as a single holding for movement purposes. You can do this quite happily, but generally we do not recommend it, as whilst it allows you to freely move animals between these parcels of land, it also means that if any part of your land gets subject to say F&M restrictions, then all of it does, and a cull would be against all the bits, not just one. However I digress.
 
As you have said the land is 10 miles away, then 2 possibilities below
1. You can register their land against your name, but it will have a separate CPH, and movements will be treated as moving between holdings, with standstills etc. This would mean that any pigs coming back will put you on a standstill, even against themselves, so you could not bring them back to your place prior to slaughter unless there is a 20 day period in between, so they’d need to go straight from the new place to the abattoir.  For e-aml, you’ll simply have another CPH, and set up movements between the two, being both sender and receiver.
 
2. Alternately they register as the CPH holder, in which case they’ll need to register with e-aml as well, and you’d treat moves as  farm to farm etc.
 
As I said, the authorities care not one iota as to who owns the pigs, so whether you sell/transfer ownership is up to you.
 
OK so that’s the rules, is it a good idea?  I’d feel uneasy about having a  CPH against my name where a novice was looking after my pigs, - any issues and it’s me that’ll get it.
 
If they have a CPH against their name then they’d be done for infringements of the rules, but I’d look at it that it’s still my pigs that I’m trusting someone else to look after!
 
Overall I think your plan to sell them weaners and stick at that is the best course !
 
 
 
 

[hughesy]

Thanks for the input everyone. The more I think about it the more uneasy I get. I think the simple answer is not to do it.

[Marches Farmer]

I once sold a breeding boar to someone who assured me he was an experienced pig keeper - turned up with a pukka trailer but refused our offer of helping to load the boar or putting a trail of apples up the ramp so we just let him get on with it.  Half-an-hour of hootin' and hollerin' and shoving later that boar still wasn't loaded.  The buyer went home, came back the next day and we loaded the boar in two minutes.  If an "experienced" pig keeper can do that imagine what novices might do and the pigs would still be your responsibility.

[SallyintNorth]

I did exactly this with a neighbouring farmer who wanted some ground cleared for a veg patch.  However, they're farmers and friends, so I could trust them to look after the pigs and shout if they were worried about anything.  (Which they did towards the end when they were concerned they should up the rations as the ground was nearly cleared.)

As they are farmers, they have a CPH, so we did the moves using the eML system.

For non-farmers I would look into acquiring the use of the land under my own holding number - but like you, I would be uncomfortable if the pigs were too far away for me to check on them daily.

Thanks as ever to oaklands for writing it all up for us    - but on the standstill issue, if the pigs came home they would be able to go straight to slaughter without a standstill, wouldn't they?  Just any other pigs on the holding would be put under a 20-day standstill, and any other livestock a 6-day (in England.)

[phil_rich]

I would think that selling them some and then agreeing to buy them back if suitable, would work best. They then have an easy 'out' as you could collect and take to slaughter but you are covered by the fact they if they have any losses or they don't gain lean weight etc then you do not lose out.

[shropshire_blue]

Hughsey I'm inclined to agree with you - I think either sell weaners and help if they ask, or point them in the direction of a rotovator hire shop.

[hughesy]

Once we've explained all the rules and regs to them, like herd numbers, movement licences etc, they have lost interest. So problem solved really.