Author Topic: Pedigree pigs  (Read 6613 times)

Tamsaddle

  • Joined May 2011
  • Hampshire, near Portsmouth
Pedigree pigs
« on: September 01, 2012, 04:28:03 pm »
Following on from the discussion about Essex pigs, I am mystified how any pig can be considered to be "pedigree" at all, as I understand it, ie from one dam and one sire bloodline, and thus unrelated to another pig of the same breed with a different dam and sire, and thus a potential spouse when they grow up.    For instance if you had 64 completely unrelated bloodlines to start with, and bred completely pure each time, you would run out of fresh bloodlines by generation 6.  By this time, if your original pig had been the only one with genes A, its sixth generation offspring would only have 1/64 of genes A, and all the rest would be from 63 other sets of genes.
 
Of course in real life there are not this many original bloodlines, and gene A would creep in all over the place, a great grandmother here, an uncle of your third cousin there, and so on, but even so, there wouldn't be an awful lot of gene A left in the sixth generation gilt, still classified by its bloodline name A, (plus a breeder name and unique number).   Even with "line breeding" as explained in the Andy Case book, where breeders deliberately use one particular bloodline regularly to accentuate good traits, but not so frequently as to cause in-breeding, the resulting pigs would surely still be an awful mish-mash of virtually every single bloodline that had ever existed for that breed.   I would have thought the only definite thing you could say about a pig was that all its ancestors, back to 1884 when the records started according to the BPA, were definitely Tamworths of one kind or another, and that it wasn't mixed up with a Saddleback or anything else along the way.   And that it has consistently had an A dam since the beginning, but that the proportion of A in her at the present time is very small indeed, due to every single piglet ever being born having a father which always divides the gene pool by half.   
 
Also, how did different bloodlines start?   Were they what was around in 1884, in geographically isolated pockets, and if so, how could anyone know for sure what their breeding histories had been before that?   People and pigs must have travelled around since the beginning of time.  Have any new bloodlines been created since 1884, and if so how?
 
The point I am trying to make is that it is standard practice to register, show, advertise, buy and sell individual pedigree pigs on the basis of their immediate dam and sire bloodlines, possibly adding that they come from an incredibly rare bloodline, but in reality this could be very misleading in terms of the actual gene mix, and these pigs are, actually, just purebred Tamworths (or whatever) at the end of the day.   
 
Or have I got if all wrong?  Perhaps serious breeders really do go back through the records for generations and generations to work out the exact proportions of each bloodline in their current pigs, and before deciding who to mate with whom next time around.   Would be most interested to know - Tamsaddle
   

Tamsaddle

  • Joined May 2011
  • Hampshire, near Portsmouth
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 04:36:37 pm »
How very odd, Robert has started a new topic on almost exactly the same subject as this elsewhere on the forum at the same time as mine.   Not intentional - sorry.

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 04:42:03 pm »
that is alright  but it has been bugging me since this Essex pig started grunting
anyway Mr pig is the the best one to answer this for you  if you pm him i am sure he will research it if need be or answer as asked
 you can have two dreamboys but total different makeup in the genes :farmer:

Mr Pig

  • Joined Mar 2009
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 05:23:58 pm »
Tamsaddle
 
You make some very good points and have got to the nub of why the pedigree naming system adopted by pigs has its limitations. Go to the BPA website (www.britishpigs.org.uk) and go through Pedigree Pigs and into your favoured breed(s) and you can select any pig or any bloodline or any breeder and check the pedigrees. Initially they are 5 generation but you can keep going backwards over about 30-40 years.
 
Firstly, the naming system. This was brought in as a bye-law by the NPBA (now BPA) in the 1960s. Before then there was random naming (as still occurs in cattle, sheep, goats, horses, dogs etc) and some breeders even registered every pig in a litter and chose a different name for each. Even with a baby name book and a vivid imagination, it wouldn't have taken long before such individuals were scratching their heads for something new.
 
Back to the pedigrees on line which all exist since the naming laws came into place. Study a pedigree and it quickly becomes apparent that the number of Dream Boy genes in a chosen Dream Boy is pretty limited and may well be exceeded by a Yorkshireman or a Golden Ranger. Yet I know very experienced and respected breeders who can tell a certain bloodline just by looking at it even if someone else bred the pig so maybe there is some common characteristic running through the maternal or paternal line.
 
New names only come about under two sets of circumstances. Less commonly now but certainly in the past, some official grading-up has taken place under the supervision of the BPA and only after 5 generations of breeding pure onto the original cross has the new bloodline been allowed into the herd book. Thus bloodlines such as Yorkshireman (TW) were the result of one outcross to a Large White - ditto Millennium (TW) [which has since seemingly disappeared], Louise (BK), Revival (MW), Walter (BS) (Hampshire outcross), etc
 
The other way of introducing a new bloodline is via importation which the RBST has done on several occasions to increase the gene pool. Thus Freight Train, Namatjira, Orlando (all BK), Carl (BS), Rita, Ruby, Glen (all TW) have been imported back from Australia and north America at different times.
 
The vast majority of breeders won't worry too much about the pedigree and will often choose a mate for a gilt on the basis that if it's a different bloodline from the sow's sire, then it must be unrelated. The chances are that it is but it could be an uncle (on the dam's side) or a cousin. Luckily pigs as a species are pretty forgiving of some degree of inbreeding (accidental matings between siblings are more common that you might think) and as long as it doesn't occur on an unrelenting basis you shouldn't get any problems.
 
All you can really say about a breed is that, as the definition of a breed states, that two individuals when mated together will produce offspring with the same physical characteristics. That there has been some upgrading over time in almost all the breeds means that there is 99.9% purity but in genetics that is considered enough.
 
There is also the situation that Robert has alluded to of some rogue breeders using an outcross but lying on the registration forms to state that the offspring were pure bred. How often it happens one can only speculate. It is usually done for showing advantage but those who do it are stupid as it can cause severe distrust to the whole breed once something like that has happened in the herd book. Various suggestion have been made of using DNA analysis on every pedigree pig but the cost and effort far outweighs any gain and unless you're prepared to keep doing it on every future generation, it is meaningless.

Tamsaddle

  • Joined May 2011
  • Hampshire, near Portsmouth
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 05:47:10 pm »
Thank you so much Mr Pig.   You have come up with all the answers I had been wondering about for ages, and particularly interesting to learn how new bloodlines are created and/or imported.   Really appreciate your time and knowledge - Tamsaddle   

Berkshire Boy

  • Joined May 2011
  • Presteigne, Powys
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 07:18:52 pm »
Thanks Mr Pig makes very interesting reading I to had wondered about the purity of a bloodline. :thumbsup:
Everyone makes mistakes as the Dalek said climbing off the dustbin.

Tudful Tamworths

  • Joined Aug 2009
    • Liz's website
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 12:00:04 am »
Interesting discussion. I'd be interested to find out more, Mr Pig. By the by, I was told that the Millennium (large white) line was just an experiment, and that none of the breeding stock were sold on. Happy to be corrected - that's just what I was told.
www.lizshankland.com www.biggingerpigs.com
Author of the Haynes Pig Manual, Haynes Smallholding Manual, and the Haynes Sheep Manual. Three times winner of the Tamworth Champion of Champions. Teaching smallholding courses at Kate Humble's farm: www.humblebynature.com

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 10:25:28 am »
but not on an open forum       large white and the Duroc is a reality   the australian line was not so closed  as it was meant to be   :farmer:

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 09:13:02 pm »
I only know very little about my own breed GOS but the intracacies of the breeding for the survival of the breed are amazing, today i learn't a little more about why cyclic breeding in the GOS was introduced and why it is still important that it continues today, many of our modern day lines literally owe their existance to one pig or one breeder and its encouraging to know there are people out there maintaining pedigree lines by whatever meana available. In this day and age it is important that the 'rare' breeds are preserved for future generations or the diversity that is pig breeding will be lost for eternity.
manyd :pig:   

Tudful Tamworths

  • Joined Aug 2009
    • Liz's website
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 11:16:56 pm »
but not on an open forum       large white and the Duroc is a reality   the australian line was not so closed  as it was meant to be   :farmer:
I don't understand.
www.lizshankland.com www.biggingerpigs.com
Author of the Haynes Pig Manual, Haynes Smallholding Manual, and the Haynes Sheep Manual. Three times winner of the Tamworth Champion of Champions. Teaching smallholding courses at Kate Humble's farm: www.humblebynature.com

Victorian Farmer

  • Guest
Re: Pedigree pigs
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 09:40:48 pm »
wev got the same with geese and chickins the DNA is so weak because there is no other genes that's why the rare breeds have all gone.

 

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