[galtezza]

Good evening all.
We are relative newcomers to the good life, and are trying to ease our way into life as smallholders at the same time as renovating our old farm in South West France, to make a home and holiday rental cottages.
We have made a good start on the veggie garden, but are now faced with the problem of the rest of our land.  We have 4 acres of orchard, which is farmed by our neighbour, and we have a further 12 acres of grassland (well mostly grass and a growing number of weeds!)
The farmer cut the grass for us last year at no cost, as he took the hay he baled as payment.  However this year we have planted nearly 90 new trees to divide up the meadows into smaller fields.  These young whips have made it very difficult for the farmer to manoeuvre the full size tractor and grass cutter..... so we are looking at other options.

We are hoping that you can help give us some guidance on using sheep to manage the fields.  I know that sheep would struggle with long grass so we would need the farmer to make the first cut this year before putting the sheep out to graze, but we are unsure about...

- how many sheep we would need to manage the grass?  We would prefer to start with minimum numbers and then build up as we get more confidence.  We are not looking at breeding, or eating any of the stock yet, until we have more time to focus on that area.
- we think we could fence off 2 acres at a time and circulate the sheep around the plot to stop the pests building up, but surely by the time we have moved the sheep to the next field, the grass would have grown too high for them again?
- I have read on this forum that electric fencing is not great for sheep, but we would not want to stock fence the total 12 acres at once, as time and cost would be too high, so any advice on how to fence off smaller areas would be great.
- we do not have a vast amount of time to dedicate to the sheep, as we are trying to do so much renovation over the next few years, so are there breeds of sheep that cope better with minimal input?
- Based in South West France we get relatively high rainfall, but also very high temperatures in summer, would that point us to certain breeds?
- what are the key maintenance things we would need to consider with sheep?
- we have barns available for winter shelter, would we need to build some form of mobile shelter to move around the fields as they graze, for the rest of the year?

Apologies for all the questions, but we want to make sure we consider all the options before taking on new responsibilities.

[Moleskins]

- we do not have a vast amount of time to dedicate to the sheep, as we are trying to do so much renovation over the next few years,

Because of that one point alone I suggest you skip sheep, buy a small tractor and mower.
If poss. Make hay yourself and sell it. 50 or so sheep on 12 acres represents a lot of time and effort not to mention expense.

[Big Light]

Or get lambs to finish ( so you dont have them all the time) and use semi permenant electric fencing

[tizaala]

The trees are your problem. what are they? fruit trees ? they will need a lot of water,  coppicing trees for your woodburner? long term project.  or just ornaments? waste of space. 12 acres of grass is your biggest asset. that is 1200 small bales @ £4 a bale = £4800 . just from the hay. I hope you don't have problems getting your orchard back off the neighbour, that can be tricky in France. If you can't deal with that much grass then just get some sheep on it . a 40killo lamb is still fetching £100 here. 6 sheep to the acre should control the grass and give you an income.

[plumseverywhere]

First year we moved here as complete smallholding novices, we let a local farmer use our land rent free. It meant the sheep (29 Jacobs) munched the grass down but he came EVERY day to check them. If I saw anything not looking 'right' I phoned him to come sooner (only once - flystrike, yuk).
I made a point of chatting to him a few times a week as keeping our own livestock was in my mind already at that point and I learnt a great deal from him. We had 9 months of his sheep so learnt through the seasons what was what. Invaluable.
If you are really busy with renovation and getting to know your land still, I'd say don't take any animal commitments on just yet. It doesn't matter how few of anything you have, the learning curve is very steep (We had chickens first year, goats 2nd and now sheep 3rd year) some days head swims and I forget what I've already learned/asked. TAS is an incredible source of info though!   

[MrsJ]

For the first couple of years that we had sheep, we would buy in 12 ewes each with a single lamb (singles are not so commercially viable for a farmer).  When the lambs were weaned, we would then sell the ewes back to the same farmer.  It still meant checking them every day and the usual rounds of drenching, jabs, hoof trimming etc but it was a way of easing in gently to having our own flock.  When we decided we were ready, we kept on 7 of the ewes (it should have been six but I just couldnt decide on which ones!!). 

[Fowlman]

Why dont you rent the land out until your ready to use it.

[galtezza]

Thanks for all the responses.  The trees we planted Tizaala are fruit trees and ornamental, but create privacy for the holiday cottages we are renovating - so were absolutely necessary.  We have access to agro water here at ridiculously low rates, so using that to get them through the summers.   

We are aware of the issues around renting land to farmers, and have our agreement for the orchards through SAFER on a fixed term, so there will be no problems there, but we are aware that renting out the pasture land would need to be on the same type of agreement to avoid the farmers claiming the right to farm the land for a full 12 years.

I take your point on the value of the grass though.  From what you say Moleskins, sheep would not be the easier option.  I think we had thought we could start small and work up, much as you did MrsJ, but I'm not sure we could keep the area of grass down with just 12 ewes.    I think as you say Plumseverywhere, the commitment involved in a larger flock of sheep would be too much for us at the moment.  Looks like we will have to look at bringing a tractor over from the UK (costs dow here are hideous) and try to get some of the value out of the grass.

No idea what the quality of the grass is like though, would that be important to know before we invest in baling kit?  We have mostly agro type grass in the main 8 acres, but the fields closest to the house are full of dandelions, and a fair few nettles, plus some other weeds that I would not even recognise.  The farmer seems to cut them all and bale them all together - so makes no differentiation - but not sure if he sells the hay for feed or bedding potentially.

[Remy]

Sounds like your best option is to cut and manage the grass yourself if you can get a half decent tractor.  Mind you the tractor accessories can mount up to a fair price, although you can often get older stuff at agricultural/farm sales.  Planting the trees however will make it a bit tricky, although I do love trees myself!  Sheep would also eat your trees if you didn't protect them properly.

Sheep need a minimal commitment of checking at least twice daily, and also worming/vaccinating/foot trimming/shearing/fly strike prevention or treatment etc etc!!  And that's just the regular stuff, not to mention all the other things sheep can be afflicted by  .

I have about 14 acres subdivided up into various paddocks.  My summer paddocks are approx 2.5 acres each and last year during the growing season I had 22 sheep (8 ewes and 14 lambs) on one 2.5 acre paddock, and they just about kept that from growing too fast, but didn't eat it right down to the ground.  So you are right in thinking that 12 sheep wouldn't be enough for your acreage.

It would be useful to know what kind of grasses you have, but dandelions and nettles aren't usually a problem in hay unless they take over.  The most important plant to make sure you DON'T have is ragwort, which can be lethal to horses.

[galtezza]

Thanks Remy.  Yes I think checking the sheep twice a day,   on twice the number of sheep you had  would be too much work for us to commit to at this point.  We will definitely look at that option when we have completed the renovation work, but at this point we will look into managing the grass ourselves.
If it ever stops raining, I will take a couple of pictures of the main weeds growing apart from the dandelions and nettles, to see if any of you good folk can identify them, particularly if there is anything untoward in there.  I don't think I have seen any of the ragwort, the only yellow is from the sea of dandelions - but they have definitely taken over in two of the fields.

[Fleecewife]

Hi Galtezza and welcome to TAS.  I just had a quick peek at your website - it's a great site and a wonderful place you have bought.  I love the bats 
For your grassland and your longterm objectives, I wonder if you couldn't  do both - start a small sheep flock and cut the rest of the area for hay.  Obviously you would need to fence off the sheep area properly to prevent them getting into your veg area or anywhere they are not meant to be.  Choose a local breed which is known to do well in the area - there are plenty of rare breeds in France so there may well be one from where you live.  To have a breed which is adapted to local conditions does reduce the difficulties which can arise from trying to keep an innappropriate breed.  By just having your starter flock, you could learn from small beginnings, but still get some income from your hay crop.
For making hay you will need a tractor powerful enough to manage a baler, plus a mower, a tedder and the baler, and a trailer to move bales.  Our David Brown, whilst ancient, is powerful enough to run the small baler but is physically small enough to be manouverable in tight spaces.  We also have a Siromer which we bought new and is big enough for a plough, a rotavator, the tedder (just) and to tow a trailer but definitely not big enough to work the square baler.  So you  need to choose your equipment carefully and with an eye to how long it will last.  The haymaking equipment would be useful even once your grazing animal numbers have increased so you no longer need to sell hay, as you will need to make enough for your own animals and you will have plenty of other  cultivations to do.
Good idea to find out just what is growing in your meadows - ragwort will not be flowering yet but will be small rosettes which are easily identifiable once you know what they look like.
Looking at the pictures on the website, it looks as if your grass could do with some tlc - raking at least to get out any thatch, and some manure in the winter, but once it starts into proper growth you will get a better idea of what grasses are in there and whether it's lush or not.

[woollyval]

Hello

I know a little about land usage in France and first advice is be careful as you have found out renting to local farmers there is a little different to GB....they can claim land and be difficult to shift! SAFA are very helpful as are Atelier de laine which is based in your area. I would also reccommend you contact Irene Kightley who lives in your area  - very well known with a blog called Hard working Hippy. She has some Cameroon hair sheep who are self shedding and may be a good bet.

Also sheep can cope with any height of grass....dosent matter if its long.....more grass = less hay and other feed but will mean your paddocks never look 'tidy' but will be good for wild life!

I recomment hefty tree guards or you will have no trees left!!!

If you need perfectly mown grass....get a ride on mower!

[Fleecewife]

Not really to do with the sheep, more the gym.  Have you thought of adding a 'green gym' component to your set-up?  The concept appeared a few years back and seems so much better a use for all that energy than giving it all to the machines    Part of your guests' day could consist of an hour digging in the veg patch, or removing thistles and nettles from the pastures, so they could get some sunshine and enjoy the view while working up their sweat  .  Benefits all round 


I was thinking of Atelier de Laine as woollyval mentions too, for advice on sheep as well as what to do with their wool.  I went to their conference in the Czech Republic a few years back and they have plenty of info and support.