[Old Shep]

Sorry - just read your posts on the labrador thread - seems I've repeated what you've already discussed!

By the way a thundershirt is a body wrap on the same basis as the mekuti ones another poster put a link on the other thread.  They hug the body tightly which gives them reassurance.  ( In the "olden days" we did this with newborn babies - swaddling them in a blanket - but not done nowadays :-) )  A childs tee shirt on the dog if it fits tightly would perhaps do the same and cheaper than the £35+ for a thundershirt

http://www.thundershirt.xtradog.com/

[Penninehillbilly]

Thanks for the replies
The chewing is when I'm not there, I do tend to put things down while dashing off to do other jobs, so to an extent it's my fault, unfortunatly the conservatory is full of stuff that 'doesn't belong anywhere else' there is still plenty of room for her and she does have chewies and toys there. It's obviously more fun to find different things to play with! I don't know how she got the milk jug, I'm sure I didn't leave it on the floor, I wondered if she found it because of my scent was on the handle (the bit she chewed)
The 'stay' was mainly while I was trying to clear up, and not really moving away, but having a wriggly licky dog in my face every time I bend down slows the job down somewhat, if she'd sit by my side for a few minutes that's all I'd ask for now .
She doesn't take treats from my hand, she ignores the treat and pushes her head under my hand and against my leg, I've tried popping treats in the side of her mouth so she gets the nice taste, but she drops it and pushes towards me. She'll only eat when I leave her alone with her food dish. She would only eat dried dog food when she came, at least we've got her eating meat.
 * Thinking about it - we got some liver for them, would small pieces of cooked liver be OK for treats? she does seem to like it. (a local slaughter/food processing company throws tons of liver away, no-one wants it, digraceful!)
Climbing on the furniture was the ony time I've been firm with her, (apart from saying NO sharply just after she came), mainly because OH was losing patience, and she was jumping up while he was eating, I wasn't 'cross' with her, just firm, she's never petted when she jumps up, (I turn away) only when sat or stood, When she's throwing herself on the floor at my feet I get her to sit up before I pet her (which she's quick to do now when I say 'sit up').
OH isn't an 'animal person', come to think of it, he did shout at her for being 'under his feet', (theres a narrow passage in the houe, he was carrying something and she's got in front of him) I've tried to explain a bit about dog psycology, and we can't blame her for the way she is, he has taken that on board, and he is better with her now, and doesn't raise his voice at her, but he doesn't have much patience, but he doesn't  have much to do with them, apart from morning and late night walkies.
He is very good when I ask for help with the animals, so I can't complain at him too much.
I'll keep trying with the treats, liver might be a bit messy, and I'm presuming not too much, but I think I'll try a little.
But she's a real little sweetie, who just wants to please 

just seen the new posts,
we by-passed the rescue societies, a friend heard about her and brought her from somewhere, didn't ask whether the owner was aware, just presumed it was legal  .
I might give the crate another try, she didn't seem stressed in there, I just didn't want to have to wash her down again (and her bedding). poo is reasonably firm, but squashed in paws is not pleasant (can we have a smiley for 'yuk')
Popping her on a lead is so obvious- never thought of that . as it's a nice day she's is tied outside just now.
I don't know what she's like with loud noises, no obvious problem with the gun club which we can hear over the hill, we'll soon find out!
'thundershirt' sounds a strange but understanable idea, might think about that.
Thanks

[feldar]

Penninehillbilly
Everyone has given you such good advise that i couldn't give any more but i just want to say i had a bitch so like yours it is uncanny, when i first read your post you could have been describing my Meg.
All i can say is with a lot of love and understanding of where and What she's come from i now have a lovely collie bitch.
Yes she is welded to me some days and we do have bad days when she reverts to what she was and yes we do still have a slight aggression towards the men of the family but we can live with it and we get by.
We don't condone bad behavour we tend to ignore it if possible and praise the good stuff.
Well done for taking her on and i expect you would be her last hope she sounds too nervous to keep being pushed about. Our rescue dog collie had 5 homes in 5 years and he is lovely too.
Good luck, persevere with her, they are worth it in the long run

[Old Shep]

PHB - I think you are doing a wonderful job, and she sounds a real darling  .  A dog that's glued to you sounds wonderful compared to mine whose main ambition is to get into the next county!  \(they are setters and running off is what they're best at!)

All you can do is to try things as you are doing to see if it helps, if not try something else.  Any photos   My little collie has gone to live with my son (always intended) and I am missing her !  I'm trying hard not to look at the photos of Dougals puppies for sale

[jaykay]

Barbara Sykes is the border collie rescue lady, very wise. She's written a very good book 'Understanding Border Collies' which may be helpful.

You sound like you've got a dog who's 'fuss-motivated' rather than 'food-motivated'. I've got one of each. No point trying to train Skye with food, he doesn't care about it. Whereas a cuddle with me... Skerry, on the other hand, will learn anything if she gets a treat for doing it 

I'd second ignoring poor behaviour rather than telling her off. Just withdraw. They're so smart they very quickly 'get it' in a way that most breeds just wouldn't.

Another thing you need to be careful of, given that they're so smart, is inadvertently reinforcing the wrong behaviour - they make links extraordinarily quickly 

As for the conservatory - engineer out the problem, ie don't leave her with things she can destroy at the moment - make it easy for her to get it right. Put her in a large cage when she's left, just don't leave her in it for long periods.

[Penninehillbilly]

This is soppy, I hope you don't mind me sharing it.
She had me in tears today ( :-) )
I took them both with me while I went to clear a field drain (pld stone drains-channel with stones over top).
I was working about 2' down, everytime I lifted my head up there was a cold nose to greet me. eventually I was happy it was cleared, stood up -
dogs were laid back to back, Moll had her head up, facing me, ears half mast, eyes closed, she sort of half opened her eyes, looked into mine, a couple of waves of her tail, then she just closed her eyes and laid back against Jim, she just looked so relaxed and content I was blubbing, had to pack up, hands were muddy and theres a limit to how often you can wipe eyes and a snuffly nose on a sleeve!  LOL.  I've set myself off again now

[SallyintNorth]

That's a lovely story, PHB.  Thanks for posting it.

You (and Jim) are making great progress with your girl.   

[Fronhaul]

Sounds like you are making great progress.

Just realised that your liver question went without an answer.  Liver can be too rich for some dogs but you can very easily make treats with it that freeze beautifully.  The first time I did this my husband grabbed a piece before I could stop him and then complained there wasn't enough seasoning for his taste! Loads of different recipes about but I whizz up some raw liver with self raising flour (half the quantity of flour to liver) and a couple of garlic cloves and around 2 eggs to 8 ozs or so of liver and then bake it in a flat tin in a medium oven for around 40 minutes.  Cut up into small pieces and freeze in smallish lots (I do enough for one day in a bag).  Great training treats and for those using clicker most dogs will regard them as a "jackpot" treat.

[jaykay]

What a lovely story - sounds like you're (all) making excellent progress 

[Bionic]

Liver can be too rich for some dogs but you can very easily make treats with it that freeze beautifully.  The first time I did this my husband grabbed a piece before I could stop him and then complained there wasn't enough seasoning for his taste! Loads of different recipes about but I whizz up some raw liver with self raising flour (half the quantity of flour to liver) and a couple of garlic cloves and around 2 eggs to 8 ozs or so of liver and then bake it in a flat tin in a medium oven for around 40 minutes.  Cut up into small pieces and freeze in smallish lots (I do enough for one day in a bag).  Great training treats and for those using clicker most dogs will regard them as a "jackpot" treat.

Fronhaul,
What sort of texture is it when it comes out of the oven?  I am interested in making some for my new puppy but think I will probably wait a few weeks first anyway as I expect the liver will be too rich when I first get him.
Still, if it can be frozen I could make a small batch and put it in the freezer until the time comes.

thanks
Sally

[Old Shep]

Barbara Sykes is the border collie rescue lady, very wise. She's written a very good book 'Understanding Border Collies' which may be helpful.

I can second that.  She is in West Yorkshire - so not too far away, but sounds as if you are doing OK on your own PHB.  Barabara runs the rescue Freedom of Spirit Trust for Border Collies http://www.fostbc.org.uk/  You can follow them on facebook, if you look at Wills story that will really have you in tears!

[piggy]

I glad fronhaul has posted the liver cake recipe as i was going to suggest this,its brilliant stuff!
My parents are dog trainers at a club and they often have very nervous or dogs with problems and i can honestly say that not once have they failed to woo a dog with liver cake.
Jaykay it basically looks like(or when i make it!) a flapjack sort of texture,couple of inches thick,the first time i made it the kids were about to eat it until i said what was in it.
Penninehillbilly you are doing so well,i had a border puppy that i bought who was so nervous i have posted about it before,the only person she would relate to was me,a complete nervous wreck,underweight and full of worms,i had her at 12 weeks old,she is now 10 months and is a completely different dog,she will even now greet strangers when before she would just run back to her cage,i'm not going to lie it wasn't all easy but we got there in the end which i have no doubt you will as well.
With regards to the cage its slightly different for me as my dogs live outside although they have a cage each in witch they choose to sleep in,if they hear anything that frightens them like fireworks you will find them in there cages.They see it as a safe place.I would defiantly try it again.

Karen

[Penninehillbilly]

To be honest, I'm wondering just how much is 'nervous collie' and how much is the result of treatment. I don't think we would have got so far so quickly if it been really deep 'inbuilt' nervous behaviour. All I've done is give her routine, walks, regular feeds, and talked and stayed calm with her. I think Jim, the other dog is so laid back it's calmed her down as well, Next step is to meet the poultry etc, didn't want any excitement until she'd settled a bit.
She's still quite attention demanding, and goes into overdrive if I pet Jimmy, even though I'm petting her at the same time, so I walk away from both of them,  They each get some petting on their own later.
Thanks for all the kind words as well as the advice, I do feel a fraud because all I'm doing is hopefully giving her a better life, nothing brilliant about that, it's what any dog/pet deserves from us.