[SallyintNorth]

Is it possible good people, to train a much older dog to sheep? We know of a rescue collie who is 4 yrs old and shows sheep dog behaviour and the new owner would like to try her with sheep.

Oh please be careful!  Once the genie is out of the bottle it usually doesn't want to go back...

One of the things about collies is the speed at which they learn.  And they learn in ways that other types of dog do not learn.  The instincts to herd and manage sheep derive from the pack hunting instincts of the collies' wild forebears.  It can be a challenge with some dogs to keep that instinct under control and not let it lead on to the kill (or at least, an attack.)

I have assumed the new owner does not have experience of training and working collies with sheep.  If they do then they probably already know how to move things forward safely.

If the new owner has a flock of their own and the dog will have real work to do, then great and yes I don't see why the dog couldn't be trained to a useful level - although one never knows what quirks an older dog has already picked up, which can be very hard to change.  It could even be needing rescuing because it's been a problem with sheep somewhere...

If the dog is to be a pet and not have regular sheep work to do then I would urge very very careful consideration before proceeding.  It would be all too easy to end up with a problem collie and be heading for difficult times - and difficult decisions.  Much better, in my view, to do agility, flyball, obedience, CaniX, etc, and teach the dog that so much as looking at a sheep is a bad plan.

If the owner does want to go ahead, then, especially if s/he has no experience, I would strongly recommend finding a good dog-and-handler trainer who has experience of working with rescue dogs and with non-farming (if the owner is a non-farmer) novice handlers.  (Derek Scrimgeour does, but he's the wrong end of the country!)

It really is very very easy to get a collie that has some instinct to chase sheep.  It really is very very very hard to get such a collie to stop chasing sheep once it's had a go...

[Bionic]

I know nothing about sheep dogs but did hear of someone who had one with hearding tendancies and no sheep.
The dog kept trying to round up the children in the garden.   Now I leave it to those of you with children to decide if that is a good thing or not 

[Corrie Dhu]

Completely agree Sally and I would also add, think about the sheep in this.  It is acceptable for a dog to be trained on sheep, if it's for the good of the larger population of sheep.  A well trained dog doesn't upset sheep.  A young/in training dog WILL terrorise sheep while it's learning.  If it's not destined to be a sheep dog, what is the point?

Herding cats/children/other dogs is not a sure sign of a wonderful sheep dog just waiting to be trained, it's often a sign of a dog with too much eye which will not be a good sheep dog.

[pikilily]

I have a question......well firstly, i am hearing what you are saying there Sally. 'think hard before trying to train any collie to sheep, do you have/will you have the control to call them off when you dont want the sheep played with' - 'do you have the skills to keep the sheep safe from a very enthusistic collie' ----yeh???

Anyway, back to the question....... Regarding Mr Scrimgeours methods, I watched the start of his video 'The Shepherd's Puppy'  last night. it was impressive.... His youngest dog that he was starting to train was 5 months old -that was it's first time on a lead. He talked about the dogs being in kennels, he also said he would teach the dog 'Here' and 'Lie down' (i think), but that would be it. He definately said he would not teach the dog any other obedience for some time -until it was quite a bit older

I ask this question as a pure enquiry, not as any form of critisism or to pick holes in his well proven training programme.

So - what is he doing with his dogs up to five months old. Are they just in the kennels doing absolutely nothing - with no walks, or human interaction apart from feeding? My approach with my all my dogs is that all contact with me is moulding and 'training' even if it is letting them play loose, and playing with them. I can't imagine a total void! Can anyone who knows him and his methods fill in the gaps??? I feel that to do no training at all would leave me with a safety/welfare issue. I would have no control over them in the lanes, and fields about me. they would be able to chew anything in the house, or each other with out any intervention at all.
Can you explain....
Emma T

[Corrie Dhu]

I can't speak for him, but from my point of view when I say "do nothing" I'd mean do nothing much, lol.  I do have my pups on a lead if I need to stop them getting run over, for instance, but otherwise they are never on a lead when they are young because I don't want them to be drilled into walking to heel etc.  I do take them to trials to socialise and things so obviously they are on a lead there.

I would continue as you need to, because your dog is obviously going to be a pet as well as a sheep dog but just bear in mind what you want do with her in the future.  Like I have loads of toys around, if the dogs want to play with them that's fine, but I don't play with them with the toys because I want their attitude to life to be serious.  However, my first dog I got as a pup I did teach him to fetch a ball etc and he survived!.

[SallyintNorth]

Well I will have to surmise a little about Derek's not-yet-in-training dogs from what I know of him and his family and what I have seen and read about at other collie places - and also from his book, and my own experience of bringing on a collie pup.

Most people want their collies to be well socialised with people and the majority get reared on a family farm.  The kids usually make sure that the puppies know all about family life, children etc!  It's probably quite typical that mum and kids walk and play with the pup(s) until it's time for training to start - but there will be some 'pre-training' if you like from a very early age.  For instance, Derek likes to teach 'here here' for the pup to run straight (like an arrow) into your cupped hands as early as he can.  (This is in the book but maybe not on the DVD, I can't remember.)

One of the problems with doing too much training before the sheep work begins is that the dog can become too focussed on looking at the handler.  I do have a bit of this with my bitch Dot - if she can't see me the other side of the sheep she sometimes runs back around to check I'm there!  Ideally you want them to work without ever needing to look at you - their eyes should be on the sheep and their ears on you.

Of course they get exercised, they'd go mad if they weren't.  Plus you want them fit when you start training them!  I used a 'stender lead' with Dot, and 'here here' as a recall if she was running free (never in the same field as sheep, not until she had had some training with sheep.)  I mostly exercised her with one or more other collies; they know the rules and the pup will mostly tag along with 'big bro' or 'unc'!

Many working collies are not house dogs, and some are.  Mine live outside but are welcome in the house from time to time.  As a pup, Dot spent time in the house with me - but never left alone, and she had no bed in the house - from early on.  Before I became a farmer I would never have expected myself to keep dogs that lived outside, but for dogs that really work (and on the previous farm - 500+ sheep on 1000+ acres of moorland - they really worked) it does seem to be best if they have their own homes where they can be themselves and make their own rules.  They also absolutely need time on their own to reflect when they are learning.

Derek's home is a wonderful hill farm way out at the end of a long long country track - he has absolutely no passing traffic to worry about, and all the sheep in the immediate vicinity are his own.  I guess he hasn't the same need to leash a dog the rest of us might!

Incidentally, one command I know that Derek would never teach before the dog is around sheep is 'Lie Down'.  In fact he may not teach this until they have been training with sheep for 6 months.  When he works his collies, 'Lie Down' isn't a single command it's practically a language.  It always always means 'focus on the sheep' (hence why he won't teach it until they are working with sheep), and depending on the tone and the circumstances it may mean 'steady up and focus', or 'stop moving forwards and focus' or 'lie down and focus'.  (Hence you may see me, or Derek, calling 'lie down' then 'Lie Down' then 'LIE DOWN' - it doesn't mean the dog isn't listening, it may be that the three stages of slowing up and stopping were required to manage the sheep.  Or, of course, that the dog isn't listening...  )