[Stereo]

We've got a Cream Legbar who started out with a runny and slightly swollen eye with some bubbles. We immediately thought Myco and seperated here way away from the rest in a broody coup. It's annoying as we bought her as POL from a good dealer who said they were all vaccinated. We think she had something similar before but soon recovered.

She's been in the couple for a week now and the swelling has grown to about the size of a small grape and stayed like that. I can't smell any infection in it although her eye is weeping (although totally closed). She seems perky and is eating and drinking well. Her tail is up and she doesn't hunch up. She doesn't seem to be in a lot of pain but it can't be very comfortable.

We sort of decided that we were going to do the deed yesterday but it looks a little better today. I don't want to take her to the vet and spend a fortune if she's prone to something that will come back. She either has to get better on her own or she will be going. I also don't want to put her back in the flock if she is going to cause problems for the others. I also of course don't want to get the balance wrong between suffering / possible recovery.

Anyone seen anything like this? Is it myco? We've re-homed a few hens from small keepers giving up this year so it could have come in with them, or from wild birds or anywhere I guess.

Should we just cull her and move on?

[Eve]

Probably mycoplasma. If you'd have gotten antibiotics like norocillin or tylan from the vet when it first showed she'd be nearly through her course by now. And it doesn't cost a fortune.


Mycoplasma is omnipresent in both chickens and wild birds and the others are probably carriers already anyway, but not all birds actually become ill so many keepers think their flocks are free of it. You won't know for sure unless you have blood tests done (now that would be a waste of money as my guess is your diagnosis is right).
Even if you replace them, your next birds may well be carriers, too.


Vaccinated against what, exactly? 

[Stereo]

I don't know what they are supposed to be vaccinated against.

I have to say that we want to run our hens as naturally as possible and that may mean that the ones who are susceptible to things have to go. One school of thought says see if she makes it through and if she does then she is good stock. Another says get rid of weak birds immediately. That's an argument for another day really. I'm just worried she is suffering and we should be doing one thing or the other, vet or cull.

Or should we give her a chance to recover and then she has built a genetic resistance to the effects of myco, even if she is a carrier? Like you say, it's probably through the flock now so no point worrying about it.

[Eve]

Try and find someone who has some tylan to spare (I have aivlosin for mycoplasma, smallest amount available came in a pack for 1000 birds  ). 


I don't agree with the 'cull the weak' or 'nature will decide' approach at all, not even from a financial point of view as it's often a false economy. We have several healthy, strong animals that just needed a bit of care at some point (often just because of bad luck) and you'd never guess it. Nature's way isn't necessarily the best, far from it, nature is in many respects cruel so why let it win? 


Good luck     

[goosepimple]

Is it an absess? It may burst, she may have caught a 'splinter' of straw or hay or grass in it.  If she's happy in herself she's not ill and it sounds local.  You can make a saline solution of boiled water with salt in it (so a bit like tears as opposed to water which you can't put on eyes really) and it will cleans it.  Hope she mends soon. 

[Stereo]

I suppose because nature is by definition always right in the end, even if it doesn't suit our short term situation. Not arguing with you and of course, suffering is to be avoided whatever your point of view. You could even argue that humans using anti-biotics is nature in action. We somehow think we are above it.

Lots to think on tonight. I have to do something one way or the other in the morning. I'm really trying to not let the fact that she is a damn good CLB and cost us £24 out of the picture and look at it as if she was just another mongrel layer.

[Stereo]

Is it an absess? It may burst, she may have caught a 'splinter' of straw or hay or grass in it.  If she's happy in herself she's not ill and it sounds local.  You can make a saline solution of boiled water with salt in it (so a bit like tears as opposed to water which you can't put on eyes really) and it will cleans it.  Hope she mends soon. 

I don't think so to be honest. I think she is the CLB that had this before. Starts with a puffy eye and bubbles. We isolated her before (if it's the same one, we are not sure) and it went away pretty quickly. This time it has swollen significantly. It looks bad but it's not red. She seems pretty much normal in behavoir. No floppy tail. No loss of appetite. She's standing upright, pecking around, interested in corn, roosting OK. Active etc. I think if she was hunkered down she would have been gone by now. The swelling does not smell bad, just a bit of weeping from the eye.

I think this is the point where I need to decide where we are on a commercial scale. Obviously in a large flock she would have been ended within 30 seconds of any sign of a problem. In a garden flock she would go to the vet and have hundreds spent on her and have a  forever home until she crossed over the etc. etc.

We are somewhere in between. I don't want to treat animals I care for like a commodity, even though that is what they really are. But our little egg operation also cannot afford big vet bills and I certainly cannot afford to put a sick bird back in the flock which nature would have weeded out if it's going to spread problems to the other birds.

Hmmm

[HesterF]

Well if your theory is correct, nature would have weeded out my second son in his first year of life. Fortunately today we have the use of antibiotics and he lived to tell the tale and is now a strong, healthy, happy little boy who has only had one day of sickness in the last 18 months and has not seen a doctor for years. Now I know we're talking chickens here but you have a duty of care to them too. The animal welfare act 2006 ensures that all owners have a responsibility towards their animals and that includes '•To be protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease'. I know it's hard to make chickens' pay but if you can't afford to pay for antibiotics, then you need to look at your finances again. Hens are a long way from their natural environment or their natural form - man has interfered with their evolution for hundreds or thousands of years - so while it might seem lovely to run a 'natural' flock, there is no such thing really. They give to you, you need to give back.

[Stereo]

No, it's not a matter of affording anything. I've kept animals all my life and grew up on a 300 acre beef and dairy farm so I'm not a newbie. If I thought this bird was seriously suffering, I would do something one way or the other. As you drew a comparison to treatment of humans, I got bitten by a horsefly this year and my hand swelled up like a balloon. It was uncomfortable and itchy but otherwise I was fine. Did I seek medical help? No, because I knew it was just a reaction and as long as I was feeling OK, it would pass, which it did.

This hen is not hunched. Her tail is up. She is strutting about, scratching, eating and drinking well. The swelling looks uncomfortable but I doubt seriously painful. If I thought she was in serious pain, of course I would take immediate action. I'm well able to kill a bird, pluck draw and pop in the freezer if required. In fact I did a RIR cockerel this morning. I also know a poorly hen when I see one and have no problem dealing with the situation if need be, whatever the value of the bird. Welfare always comes first. 

The question really is whether it's healthy to have a hen prone to sickness in the flock. They were trying to eject her when we took her out and at that stage to swelling was tiny. They know it's not good to have sick birds as it puts the health of the flock at risk. Secondly, if she's having this problem again and we give her AB's is she just going to suffer again in the future. If we let her get over it will she be stronger for it? Personally I believe that AB's administered by non vets in an ad lib fashion is a hugely dangerous thing for animal and thus human health.

[HesterF]

Secondly, if she's having this problem again and we give her AB's is she just going to suffer again in the future. If we let her get over it will she be stronger for it? Personally I believe that AB's administered by non vets in an ad lib fashion is a hugely dangerous thing for animal and thus human health.

Which was my point with the comparison to my son. He was given antibiotics - a lot, several courses. It allowed his body to recover (rather than him dying) and he is now just as healthy, in fact healthier, than most of his peers. You assumed she recovered before - maybe she didn't. Maybe she has been battling this and now her immune system is weaker, the symptoms have become worse again. So give her a chance to recover properly - by taking her to a vet since finances do allow. I'm not advocating just dosing her up with AB for the sake of it. But I do think you have a duty of care to try and sort her out, even if you judge her to be pain free. You know you're feeling OK when bitten by a horsefly but you can't really tell what a chicken is feeling until they're really, really ill.

I just don't get the logic of your 'natural' approach when these birds have been so manipulated by man, any natural advantage they once had in their native environment and form is long gone. Naturally they have evolved to deal with rainforests in Asia. Unnaturally they have been bred to churn out eggs/grow for meat/look beautiful over just a few years (evolution wise). In turn, they have lost many of their 'natural' advantages so surely it is our duty to help them in whatever 'unnatural' way we can.

[Stereo]

We may have modelled, shaped and modified chickens over they centuries but that doesn't mean that we have got ahead of nature. Why not just put them all in a shed, give them meds too stop them getting ill in the first place and reap the rewards? Cut nature put all together? Hang on....it's no surprise to me that we now have MRSA appearing in confined chicken operations.

You say I can't know her suffering. True. Anyone who has owned domestic pets from beginning to end knows that there is a point where you need to make the call. To play god and say 'this is the last day of your life'. We do it for the best reasons and we try our very best to get it right and put our emotions aside. It's the hardest thing. So we judge. We do our best.

I've read a lot of stuff from People saying that if birds can't get over this, they'll always suffer, always be a burden and a health risk to the flock. I can dose her up and put her back in but will that action cause  the flock more harm in the future?

[HesterF]

I don't get your argument re.nature at all. Nobody is suggesting you stick your chickens in a shed. They are clearly healthier, happier and more productive (on an individual level) in a free-ranging setting. But that does not mean you can completely leave them to it and hope they continue happy, healthy and productive. I presume you take steps to eliminate red mite? To prevent or treat worms? So why would you not treat an ill or injured hen?

I know there comes a point when you need to make a call about ending their life but this isn't that call (yet) - this is a call about whether she can be cured so that she can live a long, happy and productive life. Or whether you leave her in discomfort in the hope she might get through it by herself. But at what point do you decide that medical attention would be suitable? And what if you've left it so late her eye is permanently damaged? If you've got a decent chicken vet, they'll advise whether antibiotics are suitable or not. Mine certainly don't prescribe it unless other measures have not worked. I had a limping duck in recently and we started with anti-inflammatories and bed rest for a week. When that didn't work, they were quite happy to try antibiotics which did work within two days. So personally I don't think AB are a first call for all doctors or vets and most are well aware of the danger of overprescribing. But, yes, you will have to pay to see them and that'll probably be more than you paid for her in the first place.

[Stereo]

Points taken. Thanks.