[Bumblebear]

I have thought a lot over the last few days about what I could have done differently for Eli.  He was banded at 5 days (by a vet) and I have since read (don't you just hate Google sometimes) that in America they recommend neutering by cutting, when they are a bit older, because banding has been known to cause this blockage issue.

Has anyone else experienced it in their wether?  How old were they banded?  Who did it? etc etc Any info or opinions greatly appreciated.

Sharon

[ScotsGirl]

It can happen but I have banded lambs and goat kids and never had a problem. I cut the band off one lamb I thought was dodgy but he was fine and his testicles swelled like you wouldn't believe before falling off!


Its unlikely if the vet was a large animal vet I'd have thought. I think you need to band too far back to catch the urethra.

[fsmnutter]

As a vet, maybe I can shed some light.
The problem with wethers that are banded early is that the testosterone has not yet been produced by the body as the animal hasn't reached puberty. This means that the urinary tract develops a bit less than if it had testosterone, and therefore the tube would be needed to transport all the manly juices. Sometimes this means that the urethra is narrower than a male that has not been castrated, or has been castrated after puberty. If this is the case, it is important to carefully manage diet, as high concentrates can predispose to forming crystals in the urine which can get stuck in a narrower tube.
This is why some people castrate later, once an animal has hit puberty, by cutting the scrotum and removing the testicles, or using a burdizzo to crush the cord. Either of these procedures is a more severe procedure than putting a rubber ring on at less than a week of age, so there is more risk of the animal having complications, such as infection, bleeding, or death. Also, (certainly with lambs, I'm not entirely sure about the exact age for kids) any lamb over 3 months of age being castrated must be done by a vet, with appropriate analgesia (pain relief) and anaesthesia (either local, or a full general anaesthetic depending on the animal and the vet). Again, adding in the anaesthesia increases the risk to the animal.
I personally think that the banding method (which I have used over many years when lambing in commercial flocks, and for my own lambs) is quick, fairly painless and fairly low risk. The risk of urethral blockage later down the line is a very rare complication, and I'm so sorry for your loss, but it shouldn't put you off castrating.
And ScotsGirl, I appreciate you were worried about the lamb, but I wouldn't recommend cutting off a band, unless it is immediately after placing because the placement was wrong. The bands cut off blood supply to the scrotum and testicles, which means that the area with no blood supply starts to die back. This can release a lot of toxins, which could be released into the bloodstream if the band is cut off. This can be fatal, so I'm most relieved that it was only his testicles you lost
Hope that helps
Suzanne

[shygirl]

I wouldn't recommend cutting off a band, unless it is immediately after placing because the placement was wrong. The bands cut off blood supply to the scrotum and testicles, which means that the area with no blood supply starts to die back. This can release a lot of toxins, which could be released into the bloodstream if the band is cut off. This can be fatal, so I'm most relieved that it was only his testicles you lost

as you are a vet - can i ask how long is a safe time limit to remove a misplaced band? just asking as when i did a first aid (humans)course, the time limit for lifting an object during a a crush injury is only 15mins without medical help - so i figure this is quite a similar scenario with cut off blood supply - sorry to deviate from the main thread.

[Bumblebear]

it is important to carefully manage diet, as high concentrates can predispose to forming crystals in the urine which can get stuck in a narrower tube.

Thank you for your input Suzanne, it id very helpful.  I am dreading asking the next question but would appreciate an honest answer.  Deep breath....here goes....we used to give him a handful of lamb creep then dairy nuts (which is what we feed the girls).  You probably know where this is leading...but would the dairy nuts have killed him?  Is that a "high concentrate"?  What is a "low concentrate"?

[Fleecewife]

If 'dairy nuts' are a cattle feed then they will contain copper, which is toxic to sheep.

[ballingall]

But copper isnt toxic to goats. Dairy nuts in themselves wouldnt cause the issue. My understanding of high concentrates, would be feeding a large quantity of concentrated food, and the goat not getting much other food. Rather than the other way about, where the goat gets a large quantity of grass/hay/branches/chaff/alfalfa etc, which are all low protein and high roughage foods. Then concentrated food should be the lesser part of the diet- still needed to boost protein for growing/milk producing/ sustaining pregnancy etc and obviously for the additional minerals it gives.
 
So its not so much about the concentrate level or the protein level in the food, but the amount of concentrates. If he was only getting a couple of handfuls of each, then I wouldnt say it was too much.
 
The only thing is that beetpulp should not be fed to males, as it can help to form the crystals- but it is unlikely there is beetpulp in either lamb creep or dairy nuts. Sometimes you need to watch out for goat mixes as they have beetpulp listed in the ingredients.
 
Some animals can be more predisposed to this, I suppose it must be genetic? Getting it at such a young age is an indicator that nothing you could have done would have helped. He would have suffered with it at some point in his life- well I think he would anyway.
 
I'm sure Suzanne will be back later to reply too.
 
Beth
 
 

[Anke]

Yes I think Beth is right - it is probably a hereditary thing and he would have got it anyway. I know a lot of goatkeepers (including myself) feed soaked sugar beet shreds to their males (bot castrated or not) without any problems. Mine get it as part of their daily mix, and I also add cider vinegar to their drinking water.
 
So I think if a goat has this in his genes somewhere it may make eating beet worse in their case, but you don't know that until after the event, and also he would have likely got it anyway at some point.
 
Please don't beat yourself up about it, these things happen and we just have to carry on. Can you get a replacement for him?

[shygirl]

i never knew sugarbeet want good for male goats. thats handy to know. is it just goats or males in general?
was it a goat kid that died? i thought it was a lamb.

[ballingall]

I thought in Bumblebear's other thread it was the castrated male kid- not a lamb.
 
It was always thought that feeding beetpulp was proven to increase the number of male sheep with urinary calculi formation. Therefore many goatkeepers wont feed beetpulp to male goats only (females are fine). However, I think more current research has shown that this might not hold as much weight as it used to, hence why some people do feed beetpulp. We don't- but then my mother was being trained as a vet in the very early sixities when the initial research was quite fresh, so we still err on the side of caution and don't feed beetpulp.
 
Beth

[Bumblebear]

He was a goat kid.  It was literally just a handful (if that!) to stop him bothering the others as they ate.  Their main diet is branches; hay ( with veggies and fruit to supplement any concentrate).

[shygirl]

what age was he rung and what age did he die?

im sure the feed wouldnt have been the reason, its just bad luck 

[jaykay]

Doesn't sound as though his diet was the problem. And tons of us band kids and lambs with no problems.

I think you have to conclude that it wasn't your fault, it was unfortunately 'just one of those things' that couldn't have been predicted. We can't control everything, much as I like to try.

I also read something on an american goat site about hard water contributing to the urinary stones.

[ScotsGirl]

I'd just like to add that I think it was within a few hours that I removed the band and haven't made that mistake again! Very interesting Suzanne, I just wish our vets explained things so well. Mind you if I worried about all the possibilities that could affect our animals I don't think I'd sleep at night.

[fsmnutter]

as you are a vet - can i ask how long is a safe time limit to remove a misplaced band? just asking as when i did a first aid (humans)course, the time limit for lifting an object during a a crush injury is only 15mins without medical help - so i figure this is quite a similar scenario with cut off blood supply - sorry to deviate from the main thread.

I would say that things hold very similar for human first aid and animal, the problem with crush injuries or anything that is cutting off blood supply always comes when the blood flow is restored (think about having cold hands on a winter's day - as your blood vessels close down to preserve heat, it doesn't hurt, but when you come back in, and the blood flow returns, it hurts like hell!). As such, I would recommend certainly sticking under the 10-15 min mark, but usually with placing a castration ring, you either release it and it's containing two testicles and avoiding the teats, or it is misplaced, so you should be able to release it if you are concerned within seconds. If you place it, think it's ok, but are concerned something is wrong with the lamb minutes to hours later, then removing the band is not likely to help, if the urethra etc was trapped, it would probably be irreversibly damaged without surgery, therefore if concerned at that point, the vet would be the best place for him.

In terms of diet, yes, a high concentrate diet means one with lots of concentrates or hard feed (usually with high protein levels) (think of commercial folks raising lambs or calves as quick as they can for meat, so putting in lots of feed). A handful of feed, regardless of what type, is unlikely to be a high ratio of concentrates. One thing that can increase the chances of urinary calculi (stones) is having a high amount of calcium in the diet, but again with such a low volume of hard feed, this is unlikely. I don't think there's anything you have done wrong, or should change in future, as it sounds like one of those unfortunate things.