[toaster]

Please dont shoot me down but I'd like some advice after a winter of poor decison making, I'm pretty sure the following is a classic example of how not to do things 
I have a flock of sheep consisting of four Shetland ewes, one 'mule' lamb, two Shetland rams and two other rams (all but the Shetland ewes are last years lambs)
The idea was to send of the two Shetland rams, the mule lamb and one of the other rams to slaughter last November (these were all last years lambs) but we couldnt get them booked in anywhere before Christmas, after Christmas they were too wet and dirty to go, then I hold my hands up I took my eye off the ball and they lost a lot of weight, I still have them now
My first question is that they have been fed back up quite well now and on fresh grass, can they still go if they are underweight? one of the rams was always tiny and never quite 'right' I guess he could go for mince?? I'd like to keep them on longer but feel for the sake of the ewes that it would be easier if the others were gone
Secondly the female mule lamb has been in with the males throughout (as of course they were going to go months ago before breeding season) she shows absolutely no signs of being pregnant, can she still go or should I hold on to her 'just in case'
Ok... next set of mistakes
I decided not to put the other ewes in lamb so kept them separate in the autumn, all good I hear you say...but..
One ewe kept escaping despite electric fencing so in frustration in late November I put her in with the 'slaughter' lot so now I am guessing she will be pregnant but she is showing no signs, my worry here is that her own son was in with the slaughter herd and could have covered her 
THEN the other ewes needed more grass and shelter and fed up with the mud and reaching the end of my tether I threw all of them in together around Christmas time
I am very concerned that when they all lost weight this will have had a detrimental effect on the ewes who may of course all be pregnant
I sound like such a numpty I know, I've had the sheep for a few years time now and lambed sucessfully the past two years but rain and thd standing water in the fields has really hit hard this winter
I would appreciate any words of advice
 
 
 
 

[Foobar]

I would do all of the following:
 i. keep anything that is likely to be in-lamb, that is any female that has been running with a ram, whether they are showing signs of being in lamb or not.  The abattoir won't like being sent in lamb ewes. And assume they are in-lamb and feed accordingly.
 ii. If there are any others that are ready for the chop then send them (unless you need to send them all off in one go).
 iii. Wait for the others to pick up some more condition as the spring grass comes in and then send.
 iv. Don't worry about the son mating the mum business, just don't keep the offspring for breeding.


You can send them if they are under weight ... but how much underweight are they?  Would you be better holding those ones back for a bit?

[Anke]

Re slaughter - if these lambs are for your own coonsumption then of course they can go at any weight. You pay per animal for slaughter, not by weight, so it is up to you when you bring them in. You will just get smaller joints... So I would send them off as soon as possible, if they have a good covering, irrespective of their weight.
 
Re mothers/son mating - again not (in most cases) a problem, just make sure any offspring goes to  slaughter or market before breeding again. You could of course get some deformity, but unlikely. Calculate (about)142 days from when you put boys/girls back in together - earliest lambing date) to maybe three weeks later (when most of them should have been covered) - end of lambing. Then again count back three weeks from earliest lambing date - give booster vaccination to ewes (they should be due a spring/annual booster irrespectively of them lambing or not). Count back 6 weks from earliest lambing date - start feeding them some concentrate, but watch out for grass growing, don't get them too fat.
 
BUT - don't take the ewe lamb to the abattoir, it is likely that she is in lamb, often lambs/gimmers don't show very much and even the udder can come in very late.... so I would separate her out and give her some feed, not much as she is most likely to have a single and if too fat can have problems lambing. Also I would give her a booster jab of Heptavac P+ (if she was done double  shots last summer) to make sure she has got some antibodies to go into colostrum. Even if not the recommended 4 - 3 weeks pre-lambing, it will still be better than nothing. She could of course lamb any time from now until.... 146 days from when you separate them, so that's a difficult one to watch....
 
I would however put rings on any male lambs that are born, to give you time to let them grow until they are ready for you to take to slaughter (or get to market weight), and that way you should have no problems next year. maybe also no planned matings next year, as you will probably have a surplus of lambs anyway...
 
PS.: We all make mistakes, and last year was so stressful... I have done a few ones too last summer and am still grappling with the consequences.... you are not alone!

[colliewoman]

Right first up, don't beat yourself up about it as that is a pointless waste of energy.


If they are in poor condition you must feed them up whilst they are still with you. What are you feeding at the moment?
Are they wormy or flukey? If so this needs treating but then you must wait the withdraw period before you can send em on.

I would if there is grass enough hang on to the boys till they have put a some more condition back on. It cost the same to butcher a scrap of a lamb as it does a nice fat one, you might just as well get some good meat out of it
See if you can get the possibly in lamb ewes scanned, then you don't have to guess. If not I would feed as if they are expecting. If you are worried about inbreeding simply decide now that any lambs produced are for the freezer not the gene pool and that solves any angst with that one .
Get yourself a pair of elastrators and a box of bands and that will be that problem solved this time round

Then finally mark all this down in your diary so you have a good reminder to book the slaughterman in early this year

Then have a big drink and enjoy the sunshine

[Fleecewife]

I agree with the general verdict    but would add that Shetland lambs are never going to reach much of a weight in their first year.  They are notorious for failing to put on any further condition over the winter, hence the usual advice to send them at 16 months once they have fattened on good spring grass.  Definitely castrate next year 

[toaster]

Thank you all so very much
I bought them all in yesterday and checked condition, feet etc. I did the Heptavac injections on all but the two fattest lambs
I will get those two booked in to go as they are a reasonable size and will keep the little one back for longer.
I ordered the liver fluke wormer from Countrywide a couple of weeks ago but when it came in they sold it instead of putting it aside! I have re-ordered it and will have it by the end of the week
I found the Shetland ram lambs near impossible to get castration rings on within the guidelines, I mucked up the first year by getting them on in time but not sucessfully. The male 'mule' lamb was no problem, he was born with the most amazing goolies!
I am keeping back the other mule ram who is uncastrated (intentionally) to be the father of any future lambs so hopefully this will be the last year where I hit winter with slaughter lambs as in future they should be faster growing.
I will keep the 'possibly pregnant' mule female
Thanks again
 

[Marches Farmer]

Some ram lambs, especially the smaller breeds, can be almost impossible to ring, even for the most experienced of shepherds.

[colliewoman]

Some ram lambs, especially the smaller breeds, can be almost impossible to ring, even for the most experienced of shepherds.

They can be tricky it's true though I have never missed one yet BUT even if you accidentally rig (balls still up and an empty sack in case there is different sheep speak for this too ) one he is still going to be sterile in all but the very harshest of winters so still avoiding the problem

[shep53]

A mule ram as a producer of fat lambs on a scale of 1 to 10 might be a 2 . the lambs could be any type and conformation  Blue Faced Leicester being 50% tall  long necked no leg muscle , the other 50% could be any of several hill breeds again not known as meat producers .

[toaster]

Good to know about the castration thanks

I think I must have my terminology wrong, I thought all crossbreds were referred to as mules. The male and female lambs are Suffolk crosses. The ram lamb I want to keep for breeding is a bit special, he was bred specifically to produce good weight lambs and looking at his face must have a lot of Texel in him

[Foobar]

There are a number of different sorts of Mule .  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule_(sheep)

[shep53]

Now your ok on the same scale  suff x tx  10 out of 10