[SteveHants]

Where are you Steve? it is a good idea to have a trainer handy when you first let loose on sheep. I am Scrimgeour trained!! But I think I am too far faway from you.  Don't forget the value of your position regarding dog and sheep. If yougo clockwise the dog should go anti clockwise to balance the sheep. You can distrast from gripping etc by working this balance. Sometimes you just have to  trust your dog.

I was hoping that the phonecall to the trainer might result in an offer to let him go there and go round his sheep actually.....

[SteveHants]

...and it did. 


Pips training session lasted about 10 minutes. We ascertained he wanted to chase sheep and he would go round them.


He now needs to learn to STFU so we can train him, so no seeing sheep for a month, Pip. 

[SallyintNorth]

Good news, Steve 

Derek reckons they bark when they're over-faced, so start small - small pen; just a few small, quiet and dog-trained lambs, so the pup doesn't feel daunted and can start to see how it can control the sheep.

But yes, sounds like he just needs a bit more age about him before he sees sheep again.

It's looking good though 

[SteveHants]

I think the barking is my fault - he comes around with me in the land rover and can see the sheep. The trainer reckons its frustration at seeing them run away and not being able to get at them - hence he cant see sheep for a bit. I might put him in a dog-cage and cover it when I'm with sheep, that way I can continue bonding with the dog. 


Also he went at the sheep tail up, in 'play' mode, so he needs to mature a bit.


He managed to jump the pen, get in and nip some of the sheep, so he seems to have plenty of power about him -  this is not nescessarily a bad thing, Wilts Horn rams need a confident dog to work them (so do the ewes, come to that).

[SallyintNorth]

'Tail up' in a working collie usually signals anxiety.  So does tail-between-legs, as per any dog, but in the first case the collie is addressing the fear with aggression / bravado, in the latter the fear is showing.

Your job as trainer is to build his confidence so that he never needs to fear that anxiety.  Starting small with trained sheep will give him the confidence that he can outrun them (he can't outrun adult sheep in the open yet, but he doesn't need to know that  ) and that he has the power (in his eyes, not in his teeth!) to hold them and to turn them.  (Again, he won't in fact be able to do this with older, bolshier sheep for a while, but again, he does not need to know that  )

Sure, you can move sheep with a collie operating with his teeth, tail up, full of bravado.  But you won't control sheep with that dog.

The collies with the most power move the least.  It's all in the stance, the eyes, the confidence.


And yes, in the real world, the dog has to know how to use his teeth when it is necessary.  But if you let him do that from the beginning he will probably never develop his real power.  So my preference is to teach them confidence in their own power, skills and dominance over sheep by building on success - small steps, always set up for success, never putting the dog in a position where he is frightened or not sure what to do.

He needs to learn that he can make those sheep do anything - and that if he doesn't know how right now, that you will give him the command that makes it all work.

Once he knows that, then you teach him to use his teeth.  But on command, under control, and only in the ways that you stipulate and when you say so.  Generally, a nip to the back of the leg to encourage from behind - but it must be the lower part of the leg, not the fleshy bit - and a snap to the face with a bolshy sheep.  Skip's an artist with that one, he hardly ever makes contact but he shows the sheep unequivocally that he could and he would if he had to.

[Bumblebear]

Fascinating thread.  Thank you.

[Tilly]

 
..... yes I  am really enjoying this tread too,thanks SallyintNorth for some great advice on sheep dog handling .
 
 I normally do a little of something everyday with our young collie,she is great fun,but very very excitable  , and with renewed thought on making her drive the sheep slowly, and not get to excited and" fly about ",as she can do, - our training session went very well this morning.
 
- Going back to basics and making sure they didn`t get things wrong really does build confidence in a young dog
Tilly and Meg
 

[SteveHants]

A quick update:


Pip is still very noisy, and my trainer had suggested that I pen up some sheep like he did and ring him when the dog goes round them quietly, which I had planned to do...


But: I had noticed he is silent around sheep if he is on the lead and walked up to them and I had been reading VSS book, annd he suggests letting a dog have a go in a field before pen training so....


I have a field with about 8 cull ewes in it, its....I guess 7 or so acres. So, I took the dog up there and walked round the ewes with him on a slip......bunched them up in the middle of the field and let him off.


Bugger me if he didn't go round the sheep (too close for my liking, but you can't have it all), balanced them pretty well, except when he got over excited, he did lose one or two out of the group and the rest got themselves against a fence, so I tried to push them off (arms and stick), and bugger me if he didn't get them off the fence himself - all the time hes bringing the sheep to me, often times they ended up a foot from me and stuck to the fence..


So; I tried it again the next week and he did the same thing, but better - he'd clearly learned, so not a fluke. Wasn't giving commands at this stage because he isn't rally listening, too excited apart from saying 'come bye' and 'away' when he was going in that particular direction. He was silent through both of these incidents.


And today:


I have a piece of downland split into two 75 ac fields - I walk him on the side that has no sheep so he can let off stem, but he must have smelled the ewes or something...so.. he ran off and must have pushed under the gate (It was up quite a slope and I'm not Usain Bolt)..


By the time I got to the top and had hopped in the land rover to go look for him, he was busily bringing me the whole mob. He did lose it quickly, unable to keep splitters with the rest, ended up splitting them in two and chasing some 5 or so stragglers - I caught him then - of course I had to let him go again so he wouldn't associate being called with leaving his game. I was still mightily impressed though.


So; on to the pen of ewes I think, to teach him to run out wider and possibly to actually listen to me.


But - I am so relieved he wants to work and can keep his trap shut - I bought him as a pup because I wanted him to bond with the family and my biggest worry was having to get rid because he couldn't/wouldn't work - but now I am convinced that one day, with some work he will make the grade.


He is currently flavour of the week. 

[SallyintNorth]

That all sounds really promising, Steve     Well done Pip 

[SteveHants]

And heres a pic of the downs concerned.


There are no sheep on the side of the downs in the photo - I had him off the lead in the small valley - the sheep were over the far slope and my land rover was parked by the woods at the top of the far slope (mush where it is in the photo, but the sun wasn't shining today..). So, you can see why I couldn't keep him in sight running up that hill. 


Oh, and there are nigh on 200 ewes up there, so quite a mob to fetch!

[in the hills]

Glad your lad is showing promise 


My neighbour teaches his collies in the manner described by SITN. He only teaches the pups a recall in his yard and gets them used to a collar and lead. He shows them the sheep at around 9 mnths to see if they are ready to start training. Between 9-12 mnths he begins to train. Says they will not listen at all initially and he merely shouts the commands as they do the actions eg. lie down when they naturally do it. Sheep are in a small pen initially to keep them safe.


Things are more complicated I think when the young dog is kept also as a pet/house dog. Children are very tempted to throw for them and children/OH all giving slightly different commands  . My collie will have to learn some commands/training before the 9 mnths because she has lots of different roles ..... jack of all trades and master of none .... bit like me. 

[Skip]

I have just been reading the update on your dog, Pip's progress. I used to have 3 collies and at one time plenty of sheep to work on. The bitch, Blazer was useless when I started with her and so got another dog, Skip, who was absolutely brilliant and will never get another one like him. Blaze used to watch Skip when I worked him on sheep and Indian Runner ducks and went everywhere with us as well as on the trialling fields. Eventually Blazer was working the Indian Runners herself after spending many months watching Skip do it and she also started to work some old ewes in a small field. So dogs do learn by watching other dogs. I then got a 3rd dog, Henry who was very good, not as good as Skip but I was able to run a brace with both Skip and Henry quite successfully. I now have another dog, Pip from Wales, as the others have all died after long and happy lives, and sadly I have found it very difficult to find grazing fields in order to get a small flock of sheep. I have been playing ball with the Pip and getting her to lie down and come to me for a while now and I got in contact with someone and he said bring the dog over and you can have a run around on the sheep and to my amazment when I tried Pip on the small flock she didn't do bad at all. She hasn't got very good right hand outrun but she has a good left hand one but then again I have known and listened to other shepherds that say every dog has a good side and a bad side, just like people. She is now 15mos she is settling down nicely so I don't think playing ball does them any harm at all. In my mind it is better to teach the dog something and teach them commands that you may use at a later date with sheep then do nothing with them at all. After all collies are very clever and adaptable dogs.