[plumseverywhere]

This is probably a question that cannot be answered categorically but hopefully you will see why I am asking as I go further into it!

Our pup is a cross breed. Apparently crossed between a ginger coloured terrier (mum) and dad is believed to be samoyed. However...the mum was allowed to roam and was taken in as a stray so dad could theoretically be anything, right?

Our pup is black and white.  If he actually was a true cross between ginger terrier (norfolk) and white samoyed would this colour variation happen? He actually looks just like a border collie with a terrier face! (funnily enough there are lots of BC males in the area    )
Reason I'm keen to try and establish is so that I can work on/enjoy/anticipate certain breed traits. We have already seen a keen ratter (from mums side) and he is SO easy to train ( for bc!!)

If nothing else, would be interested to hear your thoughts   

[happygolucky]

I have always been interested in genetics of humans as well as dogs, I know some genes are recessive and some dominant.....other than that, not too sure.........I find with humans, we often resemble grandparents rather than parents!!!!  Time will tell unless you get a DNA...I wonder ??
 

[plumseverywhere]

  Sandy

Milli was asking about DNA. Would be sooo nice to know!

[happygolucky]

  Hi, I bet it would be costly, my mums family have been DNA sampled....... turns out interesting, we have some red heads in the family too and that's a dominant gene......I did get things explained buy an experienced dog breeder and handler but I have forgotten....I will ask again!!

[doganjo]

It is not yet possible to determine a dog's constituent parts from its DNA as not all Genomes have been determined as yet - due as much to the complexity of breeds as much as anything.  Basically all dogs go back to the canis lupus (the grey wolf - and the variety 'familiaris' is the branch the dog stemmed from), and each breed was developed from that for different traits.

In theory as the colours of the Norfolk are shades of red, wheaten, black and tan or grizzle a mating to a samoyed could produce black, I'm not 100% convinced but I am not a genetecist.

However, I think you can certainly use the terrier characteristics, but probably not the Sammie ones(not very informative in the breed standard "Displays affection to all mankind. Unprovoked nervousness or aggression highly undesirable.| as a basis for training.

[happygolucky]

I ment the DNA for the breed not the colour!!!!! It was a bit of a joke about my family genetics being red haired but that is true...

[in the hills]

Not sure about colour genetics but if he turns out a good ratter, Plums, we have a job for the two of you here. 

[doganjo]

I was not referring to colour at all.  I referred to DNA profiling, that is, identifying a dog by using DNA testing.

As I said the Genome for all breeds has not as yet been determined.  Therefore it is not as yet possible to determine all of the breeds which make up any individual dog. 

It is possible to have your dog DNA tested by Optigen (DNA profiling) and recorded at the Kennel Club for £25.  This will allow a dog to be individually identified should it ever go missing and turn up in someone else's hands, and if it were ever required for proof of parentage.  It is a much more secure method of identification than tattooing or micro chipping.

 

[Alistair]

It's all about genes, there's something like 26 I think loci on the hair gene, then it gets complicated cos there's agouti genes (ive got a air of armani jeans) too, I.e. stripy hair shafts where the top can be white, the middle darker etc....

And then there's a hierarchy of colours on the loci too..

So in a simple sense with eyes there are two loci (one brown or blue and one brown or blue) so there, with two parents can be a multiple combination of different genes in two layers so you can have any shade from brown to blue but because brown is the darker and dominant you probably get brown but with eg collies and huskies you get a higher predominance of greys and blues, that's a bit more simple to understand the coat is incredibly more complex but the more interbred the breed (I.e. pedigree) the more stable the gene pool and at colour ie westies are white...

Anyway the real answer is its magic and that's all you need concern yourselves with

[happygolucky]

 

[Alistair]

There was a  programme on the telly a while back - about dogs that is - there's been other programmes on the telly since I believe, generally about other stuff I think but with some doggy stuff in them, you've been framed etc, anyway, there was a section regarding breeding some sort of Russian fox, it had been going on for 50 odd years or so, there where two groups, one a control, so foxes randomly bred with others, and the experimental where only foxes showing some domesticated traits where bred with each other.
The outcome was that the control group stayed feral and pure single colour whilst the experimental group did indeed become more domesticated, enjoying being cuddled etc and the byproduct was that their coat colours changed beginning to replicate some of the traits of domesticated dogs, eg white tip to tails etc
I wish I could remember more and the colours are probably wrong but I've been up since 5 with the puppy and I only went to bed at 2 so I'm a bit fuzzy and the puppy has gone to sleep so I'm lonely as well, might catch up on a bit of telly now

[happygolucky]

I saw that programme as well Alistair, although I cannot remember what happened to the Fox's in the end??
I also tried to study genetics at School when I was an assistant in Science lessons but, it just sort of lost me,  too much complex  maths regarding probability....cannot think of the word just now as not long been awake!!!
It is an interesting subject though...re dogs, like you say a guessing game......unless there is obviouse traites like short legs, long mussles or floppy ears, what sort of pup have you got then? I love dogs and if rich would have tons of them!!

[Sylvia]

Plums, I would guess a Collie

[Alistair]

10 week old border collie  she's black and white with grey eyes, her mum was lavender merle with blue eyes, her dad was tricolour with brown eyes, I've got slightly grey hair with brown eyes.

I used to breed royal pythons, teaches you loads about genetics, one of my degrees is in zoology so that's where all the genetic stuff comes from and as such might well be 20 odd years out if date. I stopped breeding snakes when one of my spider morphs started stargazing and then died which is a genetic condition, sort of brought home how little we all really know about genetics and knock on effects of how changes on one gene can effect other genes... The world of snake breeding is in my opinion pretty much out of control, there are a few people who know what they are doing but it's so easy to be conned, eg there's a dwarf morph of the reticulated python, I've got one, he's pretty much full grown at 12ft and has a sensible diet to maintain this size, but I was recently in a shop where I was offered a retic morph and told that the snake wouldn't get bigger than 8ft cos the mum was small, this is utter b******s, retics can be 20ft + and unless you know the strain and can handle big snakes you shouldn't go near them, mind some change hands go 10k plus so that might put you off

[happygolucky]

I love having a pup around, although they also tend to find anything they should not have, as for snakes, even reading your post made me shudder, that's about the only thing I am scared of, so is my husband, I am happy with any other animal or insect  but the thought of a 20ft snake
I think people who work with animals must have so much job satisfaction, I wish I had studied animals rather than humans, although I suppose jobs are a little more limited.
Genetics do fascinate me but my brain is not designed for so many variables, similar in the plant world.