[FiB]

I might have missed an important thread here - Foolowing your post Sally in the North, which sounds like you have had a tough time  ...........can you help me understand when I might choose to re vaccinate - I hepto vacp'd mine last Feb (following 2 suspected pasteurella deaths because I vaccinated initially with Covexin??) aad then boosted 6 weeks later.  Id planned to give them annual booster pre lambing....  should I be thinking differently or watching out for anything that would prompt me to re vaccinate?  The tup is coming this weekend.ONe of them was coughing a few days ago, and I was thinking 'I'll keep an eye, but at least they are vaccinated'.   I'm losing confidence.
 Similarly, I had 2 sheep loosing fleece on back, no scabs or wounds (so pretty sure not scab), and all scratching - last year this was ID'd by vet as biting lice so assumed the same.  Crovected them all max dose for ticks (bigger dose than for lice) next to skin down midline.  Fleece loss stoped and regrowth evident but they are all still scratching like buggers!  Is it possible the crovect hasnt worked and I need to do them again?
Whats the alternative?What do folk that shepherd under Soil Association guidance do?

[SallyintNorth]

Thanks for the hug, Fi - but not sure it was me having the bad time.  We did have a 'septimana horribilis' not so long ago, but, like poor Donna, when you have a cluster of upsets, you have to stand back and recognise that taken overall, we do pretty well, really.

I've written reponses to all your comments and questions, but it was a very loooooong post, even for me!  , so I've split it into subtopics.

[SallyintNorth]

First, let's get that organic thing out of the way.

Animal welfare always comes first.  Folks who are registered organic can, if essential for animal welfare (ie they've tried all the less noxious alternatives without success), use meds such as Crovect with a veterinary derogation; the withdrawal periods are twice whatever they are for rest of us.  If an organic farm was found by its regulatory body to be using such meds on a routine basis, then they would have to undertake management / husbandry measures to reduce, hopefully to 0, the amount of such use they would need to make. 

[SallyintNorth]

Re: sheep still being itchy after apparently successful Crovecting for biting lice.  It could be any or all of the following:

• not all sheep were treated simultaneously so they've been re-infested
• neighbour's sheep also infested, so have re-infected yours
• there was more than one parasite there and Crovect doesn't affect the other one (eg, sucking lice, for which you'd need to use Dectomax or similar)
• the rain washed the Crovect off before it was completely effective, leaving a residual infestation and imperfectly protected sheep - just one of those things with this weather, I'm afraid
• the residual itching is about rain scald / rain on new wool growth and will pass

[SallyintNorth]

Re: vaccinations.  I share your pain and concern, we are right there right now.  Two dead so far; one ill and treated yesterday.  We have used Covexin up to now as we've never had a pasteurella problem; we had however decided to switch to Heptavac-P next year, even though it is "much tougher on the ewes" (quoting my vet.)  Stable doors, eh 

So, what to do now?  Our tups are already out.  It's not a good time to be vaccinating, especially as the weather continues to be a challenge.  As this would be our ewes' first time being vaccinated against pasteurella, we couldn't bank on much immunity being conferred for up to 6 weeks (ie, 2 weeks after the second dose.)  Our feeling is that if we vaccinate the lot now, we are likely to cause a few abortions and maybe kill a few ewes.  How to gauge if that's more or less than will succumb to pneumonia if we don't vaccinate?  We don't know but have decided to be very vigilant, treat aggressively (we've already got an antibiotic, specific for this pneumonia, from the vet) at the first sign of breathing irregularities, and keep our fingers crossed.

If we continue to suffer losses, then we will of course get the vet's input.  Firstly we'd need a definitive id of the causative agent.  If it's a pasteurella, then we could consider vaccinating with Ovivac-P or even Ovipast, which are less broad-spectrum than Heptavac-P and hence represent significantly less of a challenge to the ewes.  We would then still need to do our two-dose initial series of Heptavac-P with the ewes pre-lambing in order to achieve the passive immunity in the lambs.

What would I do in your situation, Fi?  Talk to my vet, is what.  They should know which bugs are causing deaths locally, and will be able to advise about giving your sheep a shot of Heptavac-P or Ovivac-P now. (Ovivac-P covers pasteurella but not the clostridials.  You'd only need a single booster shot of either as yours have already had their initial course.)  And whether you should then delay introducing the tup, to give everyone's systems time to recover from the vaccine.  They may advise not giving the tup a booster right now, but maybe giving him a shot once he's finished his work and has regained his normal condition; I don't know, I'm afraid - this is one scenario in which I think TAS can only be a support and ideas bank; your own local vet is the best source of advice.

[FiB]

You are bloody marvelous!!!!  Many thanks.    I understand a lot more now!!!  I think I will ask vet re scratching ( I must admit I though they would be protected for a while against reinfection - not just got rid of the ones that were allready on them) - reinfection is very likely as I missed 2 (couldnt catch!!  But didnt pesue as they were OK ones)  and many of  neighbours sheep are sheding- and whether to re-crovect. (and will ask about re vaccination - I recon I vaccinated mine last year at a very low point in their health, not realising that that might affect the efficacy). 
I wonder if I will ever get the hang of the preventative (without going over the top) medication of sheep.?  When I first got them I thought Id be able to do a litle spreadsheet that told me what to do when - but its much more variable (not to mention subjective!!!) than that isnt it!!  THNANKS AGIAN
 

[SteveHants]

Oddly, I've just vaccinated mine with bravoxin-10 (my lambs that is).. I tend to vacc at this time of year for that very reason. Its all about managing risk, and deaths from colostridials are rare in the summer, although this year is a concern because it has been so wet, ideally Id like to vaccinate on a nice autum day after a pleasant summer when the lambs are tip-top.


I've had a hard time too, its just this year, I'm afraid. I lost a few lambs to worms two weeks after Id wormed, the vet said the worm must have been resistant - yet none of the FECs they did for me showed particularly onerous levels of worms. I panic vecoxaned the lot and then did them with ivermectin - which seems to have worked, but not before Id lost a few. She mentioned a case this autumn where a farmer who had been using the same field for lambs for the past 30 years with no worm problems lost 25% of the lambs on that same field in a similar case to mine.


You do all you can (although I'm mildly disgruntled that I spent £100s on meds, PMs and sending fecal samples to the VLA with still no clear diagnosis) - but losses occur in stock-keeping and no meds are infallable, you cannot think that because you have clikc'd an animal that it wont get flystruck etc, it is just less likley to happen.

[Remy]

Interestingly I've had more losses this year than I've ever had in 5 years of sheep keeping, with minimal worming and no vaccinations previously.  This year I bought in stock (maybe that was the reason even though they were quarantined), and started on a more frequent worming program plus vaccination.  Despite that I lost two to worms, another two nearly succumbed but thankfully made it.  Another one was found dead in the field and a post mortem initially favoured pasteurella but more tests showed copper poisoning - not while the sheep was with us but must have been with previous owner.  Then another sheep which had not shown any symptoms of being ill expired while I was away for a week in September - I never did find out what the cause was.


It can be so frustrating when you think you have done the best for them but my vet always says to me, where there is livestock there is dead stock!  Not that it helps!!