[Fleecewife]

More than 2,500 die with Delta variant - PHE

<<  A total of 2,542 deaths occurred in England up to 12 September of people who were either confirmed or likely to have had the Delta variant of Covid-19 and who died within 28 days of a positive test, according to new figures from Public Health England.
Of this number, 204 were under the age of 50 and 2,336 were aged 50 or over.
Of the 204 deaths of people under 50, 132 (65%) were unvaccinated, 17 (8%) had received one dose of vaccine and 48 (24%) had received both doses.
Of the 2,336 deaths of people aged 50 or over, 590 (25%) were unvaccinated, 149 (6%) had received one dose of vaccine and 1,565 (67%) had received both doses.
A small number of virus samples could not be matched with vaccination records.>>

So we keep hearing that it's now 'mostly younger unvaccinated people who are dying of Covid' but take a look at the statistics above from the BBC News online. Of 2,542 Covid-19 deaths from the D variant, 204 were under 50. Of those 204 people, nearly half had been double vaccinated.  So the 'word' and the stats don't match up - it's still older folk who are dying in droves, in spite of 2/3rds of them being double vaccinated.  Vaccination is what we have all been waiting for, and it's certainly better than nothing, but should we all be mixing and celebrating and not expecting to die?


The thing with statistics is you can make them tell you what you want them to.  By taking the 204 under 50 deaths on their own, 65% were unvaccinated.  Shock/horror.  But we are speaking of less than 10% of total Covid-19 D deaths.
Of the total number who died, 722 had not been vaccinated, whereas 1,613 were double vaccinated - eek, so vaccine doesn't give you full protection, but we know that.
What these statistics don't mention is WHY those unvaccinated people had not had their vaccines. For some, vaccination is not an option, so to hear a vitriolic 'vox pop' comment of " what really makes me mad is all those people who are not vaccinated taking up hospital beds" makes ME mad!


Statistics are a dangerous thing 

[chrismahon]

The numbers here in France are falling steadily, but very slowly. 67% are double vaccinated, mainly Pfizer as resistance to Astrazeneca (due to blood clotting) was overwhelming and it was scrapped. The current government advert features a group of people discussing Covid over a meal. Lots of speculation and theory, but the advert finishes with 'it's easy to talk without the figures. The one you need to know is 8 out 10 people in hospital with Covid have not been vaccinated."

[Rosemary]

How many of those deaths would have happened anyway? Are these extra deaths as a result of covid, or was covid just the final shove over the edge?

[honeyend]

You could say it doesn't matter if covid was the last straw, that breaks someone's grasp on life, most of us spend a lot of our lives wanting to stave off that straw.  Most of the over 50's I know are on statins, anti-hypertensives, or trying to reduce their carb intake to reduce their chances of diabetes. The statins that are prescribed also have known side effects, and you are on them for years.
  The majority of the people in hospital are not vaccinated, some of these people will have undiagnosed medical conditions, or just pregnant, and covid could be the last straw. We do know if you have an underlying health condition, it may tilt the dish so you slide off it. I have had respiratory failure, the only good thing about it is you are so unwell and hypoxic you are not really aware how ill you are.
I look at this way. We take lots of medicines in our life because we are told they will keep us well, some like antibiotics patients get really upset when they are not given them, some can make you very ill. After millions of doses given, when no vaccine is 100% effective, it's been shown to reduce overall deaths. If you have it, and are unwell you can have a grumble and blame someone else, if you don't have it and you end up very sick, your only comfort is you had your own way.

[Fleecewife]

How many of those deaths would have happened anyway? Are these extra deaths as a result of covid, or was covid just the final shove over the edge?

Well of course ALL deaths are going to happen anyway, eventually. I think we would all prefer a quick death or to go quietly in our sleep (although I always wonder just what nightmare people were dreaming when they 'just slipped away').  The horrors of dying of Covid, struggling for breath, feeling absolutely rotten and on a ventilator might not be many people's choice. As honeyend points out, most people try to hang onto the last threads of life for as long as possible, so the 'oh well, she/he was going to die one day anyway' isn't the point.
If you mean Rosemary were they already in hospital because they were dying, but they caught Covid and succumbed in their weakened state, I don't think that applied to vast swathes of people.  Many people were living their lives, perhaps with a bit of heart disease, or a cancer they had acquired, picked up Covid and were dead before they knew it, or horribly ill and fighting for their lives.

[harmony]

It isn't just about people mixing for fun and enjoyment. People have to go to work, school etc. People are making their own mind up about what risk they want to take and for most choice is important. For some choice isn't an option. For some their only choice is to carry on knowing they can't have a vaccine. Do we want to be looking at people and judging?


People on here when the vaccine was rolled out were often keen to tell people they MUST get the vaccine. We are always going to have a number of people who can't or wont.


We wont know how many of the unvaccinated would have been in hospital or died if they had taken the vaccine offer. And as already said we don't know why they didn't.


Some 78,000 people die each year from smoking.

[Glencairn]

I think one of the major stumbling blocks is the government sold the vaccine as being the magical ticket to freedom and I include the devolved administrations in that too.

Then the populous decided if they were vaccinated it would be fine to gather in large numbers, not socially distance and spend time having parties in each others houses etc

The vaccines are only 67% effective against the delta variant and you can see where the numbers start to rise again.

Add to that the upcoming rush of students going off to uni, teenage boys thinking they are invincible and younger people thinking their immune systems are strong enough to cope and long covid is a hoax.

On the hospital side of things, it probably shouldn't be trotted out as an example to try and force people to force people to be more socially responsible.

However, where I am the regional hospital only has nine ITU beds. Presently most of these are taken up by patients with covid. The majority of these are unvaccinated and the minority have underlying health conditions.

Is it really fair that this capacity is reduced and those that might need access to that specialist treatment might not have timely access at point of need.

I'm going to be getting some jobs done on my motorbike tomorrow. If an "I'm sorry I didn't see you" driver knocks me off my bike, why should my access to the necessary healthcare be taken away by people who though they knew better than to be vaccinated!?

 

[harmony]

Lots of hospital beds are taken up by people who haven't helped themselves. Who are we to decide who is worthy or unworthy of a hospital bed?


Should people have access to the information around who is in their local ITU ward, whether they are vaccinated or have underlying conditions?


If you come off your motorbike through your fault are you more worthy than someone who is knocked off through no fault of their own?

[Glencairn]

If you come off your motorbike through your fault are you more worthy than someone who is knocked off through no fault of their own?

No. If I come of my motorbike all by myself, then that is entirely on me and I would expect that a person who came off through no fault of their own would deserve treatment ahead of me.

Up to the doctors who they do treat first, but if I make mistakes I am ok with living by them.

I don't imagine the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated and are going to be suffering from long covid will quite see it that way though.

[harmony]

If you come off your motorbike through your fault are you more worthy than someone who is knocked off through no fault of their own?

No. If I come of my motorbike all by myself, then that is entirely on me and I would expect that a person who came off through no fault of their own would deserve treatment ahead of me.

Up to the doctors who they do treat first, but if I make mistakes I am ok with living by them.

I don't imagine the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated and are going to be suffering from long covid will quite see it that way though.

Fortunately our health staff make decisions based on need and don't keep beds empty for the next deserving person rather than the person who needs help now.


We don't have discussions about whether people who smoke and get lung cancer should be further down the queue than those who get it and didn't smoke.


How do I know I got Covid from a vaccinated person or a non vaccinated person?

[Fleecewife]

The NHS has always been run on a care for those in need basis, not judging by who is most to blame for what happened to them. So the smoker, the worker who inhaled asbestos and the biker who came off while doing 100 and took out a family car in the process will all be treated with equal care and investment of funds. That is fundamental to care giving. Health workers are human though, so it was good to see the drugged up young man who had stolen a car and crashed taking out others, caused a bit of a smirk amongst the rescuers when it was discovered he had severe damage to his testicles. But you would not have known there was any sense of 'serves him right' by the care he was given.
I no longer work in the NHS but I can see the horrible stress caused now during covid to nurses, doctors and all the health care workers when they cannot give total care to some because of a lack of resources.  The contained impotent fury it causes must be what is leading NHS workers to leave the service with burnout. It is however, not the place of the general public to judge anyone on the grounds that we think they are more deserving than someone else of care. We don't know the exact circumstances and why someone dies when someone else survives, so please don't throw around those sorts of opinions.  Health care givers will bend over backwards to ensure every single person they can treat gets that treatment.  Just support the people who give the care and make the decisions and try to understand their positions without being judgemental.


Cross posted with Harmony

[Q]

If you come off your motorbike through your fault are you more worthy than someone who is knocked off through no fault of their own?

No. If I come of my motorbike all by myself, then that is entirely on me and I would expect that a person who came off through no fault of their own would deserve treatment ahead of me.

Up to the doctors who they do treat first, but if I make mistakes I am ok with living by them.

I don't imagine the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated and are going to be suffering from long covid will quite see it that way though.

If you don't get on the bike then you can't fall off it.

Sadly, some people have taken that view with covid and shut down all normal contact which is probably not helping with general well being.

[Fleecewife]

If you come off your motorbike through your fault are you more worthy than someone who is knocked off through no fault of their own?

No. If I come of my motorbike all by myself, then that is entirely on me and I would expect that a person who came off through no fault of their own would deserve treatment ahead of me.

Up to the doctors who they do treat first, but if I make mistakes I am ok with living by them.

I don't imagine the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated and are going to be suffering from long covid will quite see it that way though.

If you don't get on the bike then you can't fall off it.

Yes and if you didn't get into the car no-one would crash with you; if you didn't get into the plane you wouldn't be in it when it hit the ground; if you didn't breathe in when the air was polluted then you wouldn't get respiratory diseases; if you didn't step outside your front door then you wouldn't be hit on the head by that falling slate; if you didn't walk down the street when the bad boys were out then you wouldn't get roughed up by the police.  Getting onto a motorbike is not a sin and doesn't make anyone more culpable than someone who drives a car, rides a bicycle, takes the bus or walks.  Life goes on and we live it for both our own and others' enjoyment.  Motorbikes are a cheap and low fuel method of transport used by many people who can't afford a car.  You might be surprised at the average age of most motorcyclists - old duffers