[VSS]

There should be EU subsidies specially to help preserve rare breeds -

Under the new welsh environmental scheme Glastir, there is funding availible for farmers keeping breeds eligible for the breed at risk register.

[morri2]

Its not so much the profit motive that's the problem (I've probably not made myself very clear, a failing I'm afraid) but the profit margin...how much profit is required.  Hence my comment on the farmers out to grab what they can.  Yes, indeed, that was a sweeping generalisation, but merely to make a point as this thread does not warrant a discussion on all the variations .  To clarify therefore, the point I was making is that the system, supporting as it does the larger farmer, creates a problem; many will expand for that financial support to increase - this in turn creates the need to make more profit as the area farmed grows which leads us to the profitable breeds question and the Beltex ram!! This then leads to large farmers taking the vast majority of available funding, leaving (possibly!) nothing for the smaller guys, or those dependent upon renting land where they can (which is ineligible for funding in most cases, and definitely for Glastir).  We are too small for any help or advice to expand under the Farming Connect scheme too.  (Not sure what the situation is in England and Scotland here) Thus, what I was trying to say was that it would be nice if we could all have a little profit to show support for the work we do too.  We don't all want the new pickups/cars and kit the expansionists have thanks to their mass of funding, I would be quite happy with a horse and cart if I could keep a horse!  Although we might not make the biggest contribution to  'feeding the mutlitudes', we do contribute something, just in a different and more traditional way.  To close on this point, this I think sums up the difference between 'smallholders' with their more traditional approach, and 'hobby farmers' who don't run their operations as a necessary business.

I am fully in agreement with the traditional breeds in the correct areas, absolutely!  But sometimes as 'accidental smallholders' which I must admit we are here, its more down to what we've inherited - I keep Dorsets because some one gave me one years ago - acquired another to keep it company - then a ram and way hey! - there we go....flock of 30 odd sheep now!! Love them to bits!  Also, in response to the new wool initiative we've just bought four Bowmonts.  Wonder how we'll get on with them.

To turn to another quote (which I've not found out transfer over yet!!)  - what's wrong with subsistence farming?  Wales is famous for it.   Poor but (relatively) happy! (enclosure aside)  I wrote an essay on it for my history course last year.  Anyway, I don't want to get into demographics of today's situation, because that would be another far more complicated subject (and I can really waffle, as you can see) but isn't it the lifestyle that's important?  Not just the profit?  At the end of the day (and I'm getting prophetic again here), we may all need to be more self supporting when the oil runs out!! Phew!  Hope I've made my point

[VSS]

We are too small for any help or advice to expand under the Farming Connect scheme too

I am not sure if there is an acreage minimum for Farming Connect, but I do know that there is a stipulation that you must work at least 500 hours per year on your holding on order to qualify. That is actually on 10 hours a week  - not alot.

This then leads to large farmers taking the vast majority of available funding,

I don't disagree with you that the system does seem to be loaded towards the larger farmers - we are farming about 150 acres, but over 100 acres of that is extremly rough and we only carry about 200 ewes max, plus a few cattle. I believe I am correct in saying that the SPS is now capped so that the biggest farmers are no longer getting enormous payouts.

We don't all want the new pickups/cars

Actually I could really do with a replacement Discovery as mine is about dead. Do remember that for the majority of livestock farmers having a good reliable towing vehicle is an essential part of his tool kit. Most of them don't give a stuff about all the twiddly bits, but do need an strong truck to enable him to move his stock from A to B. Also we farmers tend to work our trucks pretty hard, so they don't last very long, so they have to replace fairly often. I also know alot who have a vehicle on lease hire - this means that it may look like they are replacing their pick - up regularly, they are just changing the one they lease.

I don't disagree with much of what you say. I consider myself to be a smallholder at heart but who does it on a farm scale. I do sometimes get a bit cheesed off though that some smaller people seem to do a bit of farmer bashing in their spare time. Farming has had a really tough time the last few years. In the last twelve months, prices have picked up and on the whole farmers are more optimistic about the future. BUT  our costs have gone up alot as well. I don't know many, if any I would call well off and they work damned hard. I do know alot of well heeled smallholders.

[bazzais]

Had my Glastir maps this morning - another total waste of time for the given money in my opinion.  I just dont have the time to sit down for a week and read the pages and pages and pages, then the apprehensive wait for them to send them back because the form is filled in wrong.  We are in Ty Gofal at the moment but have not seen a payment from it in 1 1/2 years we have been in it - even though we set aside valuable fields which could have been used for grazing and left mighty big hedges which animals just seem to constantly get stuck in, we also have to leave valuable dead wood in the wooded areas and are not allowed to sensible coppice. Luckily we had help last year to fill in the forms so it only cost our union time along with our interview time and travel costs - the fuw have said they are not offering the same service for Glastir, so I wont be trying to work out the forms for myself, I live in my environment and I can react accordingly leaving nature and farm animals to co-exist (well in my opinion anyway! could be wrong though).

I count myself as a smallholder because 1.) its not profitable for me to access European grants in terms of time and confusion for the actual payback  - 2.) I couldnt make any money from farming animals even though I have 70 acres (because I need some time left to do a second job that pays a real salary) - 3.) I am not one of those financially educated people that went out and bought single farm payments to apply to my land and rape the last from the system.

Wales receives some of the best EU subsidisation know, Wales is a third world country under the EU and I would not want the financial input to stop - keeping our productive land productive has always been important as well as keeping land for our environment and wildlife is.

IMO its about time we stopped paying people to not farm - we should aim at flat rate prices for 'produce', country wide and not let markets dictate  - any surplus could be bought by the government and given as part of their charitable donations made around the world.  Supporting our own farmers/smallholders whilst also continuing in our support of countries that cannot produce enough food.

Baz

[morri2]

Great idea!   I think you should stand for leadership of the Welsh Assembly Baz,

Seriously though, paperwork is a real problem.  It took me hours to complete the application for Tir Cynnal only to find someone else was already claiming it on the land I was using (long story - never got anything!).

Farming Connect have told us we do not have enough hours to qualify for assistance to expand our farming operations so whilst they are trying to encourage people to farm, the help to make the break from salaried work to farming isn't there (catch 22).  Bit like getting a bank loan - you have to prove you have the money to get one!  Can't say they've not been helpful, they have, but I still don't quite understand how they manage to calculate this working out the hours business.  Cheers !